英語：racismコミュのwhen ignorance prevails...

Ok, there is no shortage of dumbasses out there. Stereotypes and ingnorant thinking die hard, especially when it comes to the old salaryman in this country.

I think you were in the right to change seats and show them you took offense,

I mean it is one thing to joke about who will sit by you, cuz well... that's just Japanese people... i really don't care too much about that anymore. But for them to question whether or not you can read, and suggest that you are just faking it.. well that is insulting. They were basically calling you stupid or suggesting the old.. "there is no way a foreigner could learn to read Japanese.. it is too hard". Or they may just say those things to cope with the fact that that probably studied English for X number of years, but probably cannot handle reading a kids storybook.
Basically it all depends on the situation, but from the way you told the story I think you were in the right to take offense, and showed it to them in a proper manner.

What a pair of dickheads. Shame on them, especially considering their age. Not to say that racist attitudes are acceptable in kids but they have less notion of what exactly is 'wrong' about that kind of thing....I digress.
You were very civil and took it in the politest manner possible, which I think was an honourable thing to have done, but I can't help feeling you were entiltled to a more obvious display of anger. The point is not that you happened to understand, the point is that they deserve to have shown to them what kind of anger and sadness their actions can cause.
Not that you should have stuck their heads through the tsuriwa hoops or anything but a word would have given their guilty conscience a well-earned stab. No, you were not being racist in the slightest.
And I do feel that it's more out of ignorance than racism. People living their lives solely in Japan have never had a chance to be discriminated against racially, and have no idea how it feels. When they also lack an imagination, they simply fail to think about the hurt...and think it's harmless and their 'god-given right' as natives to act that way. Probably not because of your colour.

I know... i've been a bit too soft, i'd better to tell them something... because even if this story took place 2 years ago it's still printed in my memory and i'm still feeling bitter about it...

Most of time i solved such situation by making a joke and generaly it end up by a big laugh... but this time i might be too bothered to act in a positive way (or even to act at all...)

In another hand, i've to admit such behavior isn't a japanese prior... i mean, i come from the deep countryside of Switzerland and some people are really narrow-minded... Very often they barely stand people from the next village so imagine why they can thinking about asian people... not good to be a non-french-native out there!

I am sorry, it is out of subject, but were you working at the French pavilion? Are you french? Because I was working at the Swiss pavilion and I am half french too!

To stick with the subject again, it happened many times to me here in Osaka. I work in both Osaka and Kobe, but never had any problem in Kobe, only in Osaka, usually on the loop line (I don't know why). I usually shut up and ignore them, but once I went mad and started swearing at them in Japanese, and at that time I was lucky to be with my jgirlfriend who clearly took me out of the train, because it was two different personns that didn't know each other that started saying bad things to me at the same time... (kind of old)

Wait, didn't I read this thread in other site (possibly on GP?).

Yeah, that was very rude of them. There are ingorant people everywhere........and that's not limited to Japan. When I first came to the U.S 27years ago, I was at a local university party one day and this ex-vet kept on harrassing me about me speaking English. "how come you speak English?, you are an Asian, you're not suppose to blah blah bla" then he started calling me "jap"(he was quite drunk). My husband finally stepped in and told him to go to hell. He was told to leave at the end. I have encountered similar racism and ignorance numerous times since. I usually show my unpleasantness to them. Some apologise, some give excuses, some laugh it off and mock even more. It's better to express your feelings then not IMO. Because some truely don't know (ignorant & lack of educations etc) and they could learn from you and may appreciate it. Exchaging jokes may have been interesting though .

>DJ Stout

I'm from Kobe and people in Kobe are more accustomed to foreigners cuz there were always foreigners. But Osaka......I hate to say but they are a bit inaka-monos. I'm not a big fan of the place.

>DJ Stoutさん
Oh really? So we possibly met then! I was the weird guy with a whity beard, constantly wearing a beret. I went to the fair only for 10 days because i was in charge of the design for the "cube" into the french pavillon and we finished the design in Paris. So i was just invited to visit the expo and have a visual check up with the piece "in situ". So i spent just very few time. But i know Luc, you'll find him in my mixi, he invited me. Also i met again Salvatore by chance in Geneva, he's learning chinese at the uni know...

Mmmh about osaka's loop train... that reminds me bad memories... i spend few months in osaka ages ago and i know there is some places that better to avoid out there...
I was providing some private french lesson at the mc donald in kyoubashi to a gran'ma twice a week (i know, don't mock me please...) and it last for weeks and months without any trouble until one day when some cheap yankees burst into the floor we where studying in and start to screaming loudly and fucking around just to push me out of control... just i remain calm because i clearly understood the rules of this little game... "u dare and we cal the cops..."
However when they got fade up of my lack of attention they where just about to leave the place but one of them attempt to hit my head with is elbow... wich i just escaped as a ninja and automatically stand up front of him (i was 4 heads taller than this little plumka and he seemed to pee in his brand new baggy denim his mama just bought him)...
Obviously the obaasan turned livid and kept staring at her empty cofee papercup... it was also my last lesson with her!

>ミキ姉さん
Yes, you did, i posted this story previously in GP, just i wanted to discuss about it again in this community because except some prick named violentAJ or whatever, people aren't trolling around here... a real discussion, just what i like...
Well, Pierre Desproge, the french comic once said "we can laugh about anything but not with everybody..." (ok, the non-translated french version clash a bit more...)
Also i'm wondering what kind of joke your husband could have exchange with this ex-vet...

by the way, kobe is great!

Thanx everyone for your replies (and to have read my giberish...whatever my japanese is worst!)

Hahaha Kyobashi! I used to leave on the keihan line before, so I had to tranfer every in kyobashi, it's not that bad, but there are a few monkeys (yankees). I probably met you man, are you in Nagoya now?

About ViolentAJ, well we had the same problem on my community "kinky english" and I had to kick him out of the community as he was e-stalking other people, I also got some really bad emails on my mixi from him. Anyway if you wanna laugh a bit and talk openly, come and check "kinky english" community.

About Salvatore, man that is one of my friend, he is so fun and always joking! I love that guy. Now he is in Geneva working for a japanese store. I am from Geneva by the way.

About Kobe people, yeah they are the best! Always smiling and not agressive! Kobe is my favorit place.

Actually, since we are talking about places, I wanted to comment that not all inaka places are bad when it comes to discrimination and stuff. I've lived in Kakegawa for 2 years now, and I get treated suprisingly normal by the locals. They don't attempt to talk to me in broken English while ignoring my Japanese, nobody has ever given me shit, many people smile and say konichiwa. In fact the only people that make a real effort to run away from me are the shy little kids, and they are just cute so...
also nobody flips shit when I can fill out forms and stuff by myself. And the bank uses no shortage of keigo when speaking to me though I would prefer they tone it down a little sometimes. hehe. I mean I guess Kakegawa is not the most inaka of inaka or anything, but it is certainly nothing compared to Kobe or Osaka. Even if they are thinking one way, they are bright enough to act another.

I used to live in an inaka place too called fukuchiyama, and I got the same feeling about people. They were usually very nice. But the problem was that it was soooo inaka (country side) that there were 35yo and over or kids only in that city. No young people (I mean betweem 20 to 30). So I got bored of teaching housewives and kids only.

Back to the OP... I wanted to say that in my current state of mind, I'd do exactly what you did, probably. If I were really together, I might have added a casual "日本語分かるのに・・・失礼な・・・" before or during moving. But there'd be no point to doing more, if even that. Getting mad is always a quick way to lose in Japan, so the more you say, the more they look like victims, and the more you justify everything they've done.

You don't really think their behavior will change, do you? Their thoughts and feelings won't; at best, they'll just check carefully before voicing their stereotypes in the future... And then only Asian-looking foreigners will be offended.

I'd love to say I knew of a way to confront racism and ignorance here, but it's not like at home... Unless the person is attacking you, and even then, it's hard to say how much self defense you can get away with before you're the one at fault for successfully defending yourself.

Write about it after it happens seems to be the best strategy. Shout to the world you're a victim and it hurts, and if people look, the person who hurt you will be very upset... He'd rather be anything than watched closely. But alien as this is to us, taking direct action always produces a reaction that defeats the purpose.

>DJ Stoutさん
No, i'm actualy living in geneva. "kinky english" community sound's great! i'll make a round soon!
Yeah, Salvatore is great! I use to meet him at this japanese shop where he was working in but he quit since he went back to the uni. Is he in mixi by the way?

>Andyさん
Well, inaka is kind of gamble... I had the worst discrimination experience in kurume suburb when i visited my ex-gf family... it was during obon matsuri and her whole family has come for the meal. It was about 15 people sitting around the table and everybody totaly ignore me... not a word, nor a blink or even a presentation... I put some effort to make a conversation but i didn't get a single answers and i felt i was less than a dog... (a pretty decorative one but still a dog)
Ok, no one of them has reach a english communicable level (still don't no because they even not tried to talk to me) and my japanese ability needed some improvement (u might noticed my english isn't good eighther regarding i'm a frenchy) but...
Afterward i'm still wondering if it was racism or just shyness, probably both but i'll never figure out.

>クリスさん
I know by experience that more u try to change people less they will... also there is know avenge purpose in writing this thread, i simply wanted to share my experience with u guys.
But for sure, to judge people just regarding as theire apparence is entirely wrong. In another hand Japan is a country where bullying is entirely part of the culture so it may have something to do with that...

Man you are living in Geneva! So cool, I am going back home about twice a year to Geneva, to meet Raphael, Salvatore and the other! Man I am pretty sure that I met you before! What is Salvatore nickname on mixi?

I'm not sure if he is on mixi or not but in case might mail u is phone number. Would be great to meet u!

＞ココナッツ男さん

Welcome to mixi. Yeah, most people here are more civilized than GP(I don't even go there anymore).

You are right about "you can laugh about anything but not with everybody" quote. This particular ex-vet who harrased me had no room for that. He was very bitter with Vietnam experience. There were alot of boat-people(Vietnamese refugees)arriving in the Sates at that time so any Asian looking people were automatically labeled as boat people. He was calling me "gook" at first then switched to "jap" when I said I was from Japan. Anyways he was booed away from everybody at the end. ざまあ見ろ。

About regions in Japan. Kobe had one of the biggest foreign settlements in Japan (next to Yokohama & Nagasaki)so people are much more cosmopolitan then in Osaka. Osaka on the other hand was made up with labour workers and merchants.They are territorial. People in Kobe call them 商売人、下品 and Osaka-ans call Kobe people a bunch of snobs and 気取っている. So I can see you being harrased by locals on loop lines. My husband (American) was harrased alot on Nankai Line (going from Osaka to Wakayama).

I agree that Inaka is kinda gamble. My husband and I lived in real inaka (north of Kurama) in Kyoto. We rented an old thatched roof farm house. We were surrounded by ojiisans and obaasans who's never really encountered any Westerners before but were the nicest people. They gave us lots of fresh vegetables and invited us for ofuro and town meetings. My husband speaks fluent Japanese and that helped I think. But when we went camping to Tohoku we were stared at(not a friendly one) all the time.When we went to a local 銭湯 everybody stared at me from top to bottom (I don't look full- Japanese) and harassed by a　番頭 with a vaccum cleaner. Weired experience......Some inakas are more closed-in they don't like to accept outsiders. They may be shy too....

L0k!X> "Some say Osaka is about to declare its independence"
-Good cuz Osaka is a f-ing dump! Been there twice. First time there, i thought I must have got on the train going to North Korea by mistake, if that were possible..

Like no problems with the people, and nothing against them, but their city smells, looks crappy and the water tastes like you know what.

ミキ姉＞ "anyways he was booed away from everybody at the end"
-Yeah, that is one thing about America now.. is that its no longer "cool" to be publicly racist. Most blatant diplays of racism will be met with a lot of support for the victim. A lot of the racism and discrimination in America now is done secretly cuz everybody knows they will get their pants sued off if they do it openly.

クリス＞　”Getting mad is always a quick way to lose in Japan"
-Aint that the truth. I totally agree like, for some reason Japanese people see that loud mouth that loses his/her temper as just some raving idiot to be ignored. Showing your discontent in subtle ways, and being as calm as possible seems to be a more effective way to fight back.

glad to see this community is still alive by the way. I thought it had died there for a while.

＞L0k!X
I didn't know Osaka has the biggest popultaions of Koreans and Chinese. I learned something new. It makes sence since Koreans and Chinese were forced to do the dead-end jobs or 水商売 in the past.......

Being lived in Kansai for 20 years I always senced that there was this love/hate relationships between Kobe, Osaka, Kyoto and Nara. I noticed Kyoto locals always ranting about Narans being 田舎物　and Osakans being 商売人. But IMO Kyoto people were just as 商売人 as Osakans. まぁ、どうでも良いんだけどね。。。。

On my next trip back to Japan I'm planning to explore Osaka more. I've never been to 通天閣 nor 大阪城........I've never really been beyond Umeda stations area....isn't that sad.

＞Andy
Where were you heading to in Osaka?. Were you in Kishiwada or Kawachi area?. That's known to be one of the toughest areas in Osaka.怖い〜。。。。。。

Racism will never go away......America is not perfect(is there such a place?)but atleast there's a law that protects minorites. Japan doesn't.......will there be ever?.

ミキ姉さん: in the past? I know you're not in Japan presently, but have a male friend walk down a few alleyways in Shinsaibashi, in Osaka, next time you're there, and make eye contact with people along the way. Those are NOT Japanese accents. However, you may be referring to the origins of the 在日 Koreans, and if so, I apologize; you'd be correct saying they were doing that "in the past" since now they're not exactly much into that.

LOk!X: you're kind of wrong about the 在日 Koreans, man. No offense, but I wrote my thesis on this, partially, and most people really only hear about it in the newspapers or anecdotes.

They were originally brought to Japan, partially yes for 水商売、売春 etc... Also for labor, and also they were allowed to come to Japan otherwise, as during a large part of the 大正 period they were actually colonial citizens of Japan. Unlike China, Korea was COLONIZED prior to and during WW2, making its citizens actually citizens of Japan with fewer rights. "Huh? They're not citizens now..." you ask? That's coming up, but suffice it to say they were once citizens with significant rights, until the 昭和 militarism which basically removed EVERYONE'S rights. They got worse treatment than most Japanese, but some of them would've been envied by, say, Japanese political dissidents. One Korean-born ethnic-Korean actually was in the legislature during WW2.

Then, with the end of the war, Korea had no political status for almost ten years. It was not a country. They should have been repatriated or given Japanese citizenship ASAP, but this was postponed until the end of the Korean War, fell off the radar, and was left to sit as a bad situation right up through now. While Japan does take the blame for this, the US carries a share, and it's less malicious than it sounds when you read a one-line summary in a news article about them.

You're right it IS the choice of residents of Japan not to immigrate. But, saying they're not fluent is just silly... These people were born and raised in Japan, speak and read far more fluently than you or I ever will, and often HAVE JAPANESE NAMES. I know a 在日 girl, her name is 松浦. Also, probably no greater percent of them work in 水商売 than do "normal" Japanese. The Chinese and Korean prostitutes I mentioned before are from overseas, and here illegally or on entertainment visas, frequently arranged by the mob. THEIR position (prostitutes as opposed to McDonald's workers) may indeed be because they can't really speak Japanese, but at home they're likely not elite-educated doctors, either. Now, some of them are counted in Osaka's Korean and Chinese population... some are not, especially visa overstayers. The rest of that population you mentioned is 在日 (Japan born and raised, human aftereffects of WW2), or legitimate residents, like one lawyer, or a different computer programmer, that I know.


So there's a lecture. One more thing to everyone, what's with all the hate for Osaka? I love Osaka! Nobody's ever been rude to me there... or rather, everyone is as rude to everyone else as they are to me. Nobody's ever pulled an "invite everyone else, but not him", nobody's ever tried to attack me in a club (this has happened elsewhere). Usually they're like "huh, a foreigner! Can you talk? Awesome, get a beer and join us." That, or they're like "I'm in a hurry, get out of my way." The closest thing to racism is that once, a woman on a train tried to get me to go to Universal Studios with her just because I'm white. I prefer that over the whole "as a foreigner, you probably don't know this..." everyone gives me in other places, over things like "Japanese has three writing systems."

As I said, I don't see the whole Zainichi situation as "Japan was just evil" or anything. It's complex and there's no real point to assigning blame... The answer is probably "everyone on both sides" anyway.

As for spending on Zainichi, or priveleges that they have and nobody else does... I'm not quite sure what you're referring to, having never heard of anything but discrimination against them. Could you explain more? The 'status' that you refer to, though, I don't think is anything like highly respected or envied... They're viewed as Koreans, despite being pretty much Japanese. They can choose to go to Korean schools, but because these aren't accredited by the government like other schools, it makes getting into college and working a lot harder. Every few years, there'll be a story in the news when someone rapes or beats up some kids from a Korean school because they stood out due to their uniforms. As in, hate crimes.

If someone told you the zainichi get loads of respect, that person may've meant "we're not supposed to call them baka-chon on TV anymore, and they don't even have to reapply for visas nowadays, even though they're totally fuckin' foreign." Which are hard-won rights, that they had to fight for in court... Not "special treatment", but "human rights", really.

Hmm... well, among those, a few surprises, mostly things I'd think were good ideas, given these people's likely status as lifelong foreigners. Or, moreover, rights I'd support giving to all people with permanent resident status... I doubt you'd disagree with that, anyway.

But, really, aside from noting criticisms about the article's point of view in the header... The right to become a civil servant, the right to use a Japanese name to shield themselves from random racism (like things written about on here... being required to report extra data nobody else does at hotels, banks, video stores, etc), the right to travel between their ancestral country and Japan fairly freely, "enhanced" permanent residency (for reference note the status of former colonial nations and Britain now), ease of attaining citizenship (also similar to former UK colonies), partial payment for private schools (not FAIR, maybe, but hardly so bad a thing... compare this with reparations for war attrocities around the world), and tax breaks for their facilities.

Those all seem okay, and while out situations only vaguely compare with theirs in most ways, they're all things that make slightly more sense for them than us. Except maybe the public service one, but then... going into government here after the age you'd be upon getting PR seems like a bad idea, anyway.

The objections to those rights that the article listed all seemed EXTREMELY... well, close-minded, to me.
外国人が日本の税金について意見できるものではないという批判もある
That's a bit strict, in the sense that they're paying it, and many are incapable of living in any other country. Now, admittedly in my country non-citizens do not have any input on these issues either, but we also have no ex-colonial-citizens with monolingual families who we can't repatriate to anywhere...

It's a weird situation, but I don't think any of these constitute Japan grabbing its ankles for the zainichi. Now, as for the whining... yeah, that's as good a deal as you get without citizenship, generally. Just try to keep what you have and work on people's attitudes every time you meet someone, don't complain more, you're right on that.

＞ココナッツ男さん

Iguess the guys are country folks who have not seen foreigners many times. They should not behave in that way, but they were simply curious about you. Just ignore such people or suddenly ask direcitons to them and make them surprised!

I was grown up in Kanagawa and studied and worked in Tokyo. I am currently living in Italy for my assignments. Kanagawa and Tokyo has got plenty of foreigners, because of US Navy base, businesses, schools, etc Nobody pay attension to foreigners.

However, when I have visited Nagoya for my business, I have realized that people are not that diversified compared to Kanagawa/Tokyo. They are not open to new or foreign things. Plus, there are small number of foreigners.

This is what was pointed out by professors of universities who lived in overseas, and are teaching in that area. I have visited them to give lectures as well as to conduct interviews. They said that not only student but the whole region and their fammilies are very conservative so they wanted to make change inviting person like me(Japanese working in overseas) giving sitimulation to students.

Area out side of Nagoya city center were full of rice fields....country side. I guess the rude folks came from such place.They may not be educated.

As a Japanese, I face same things in other countries. But as same as the incident happened to ココナッツ男さん,
all of them were comitted by not-well educatd locals.

Here in Italy, some people call me as "chinese, chinese". They put fingers to the eyes and extend the size..saying that "Your eyes are like this!!"

People at my work place, who have university degrees belive that I am "a migrant worker" and sending money to my family. They cannot differenciate Japanese professional and street sellers.Sometimes I cannto enter restaurants. There are alot of harrasments beceuase of how I look.

I have experienced more discrimination when I was living in the south of the United States. It has included violence such as throuwing beer tins to me.

However, in big cities, such things are less likely to happen.

If you are going to work or live in Japan in the future, I would recomend you to live areas such as Kanagawa, Saitama, Tokyo. That makes life much easier. I am a Japanese but I do not think about to live any other areas as my partner is an English, and I have lived in overseas.

I have friends in Osaka, Hokkaido, Fukuoka and travled a variety of places in Japan for my buinesses. However, I do not think people in other than Kanagawa, Saitama, Tokyo are very open to foreigners and foreign grown up Japanese.

Plus, if it were that area, airfare to overseas are cheaper than other areas and it is easy to get imported foods/goods.

funny to read again this more than one year later... i think i wouldn't make a big deal for it now...

Wow, I guess I'm lucky that I dont understand Japanese yet, ignorance is bliss? Sure hope I dont get any experiences like that. So far I have found everyone super nice to me.