☆ENGLISH ONLY☆コミュのThe ultimate legal gray zone - The Savoie "Custody" Case

ooh wow

I had no clue that story went that deep, however I believe Noriko knew that japan laws does not enforce child custody to foreign parents. So therefore a Japanese native can just take there children back to japan where they are protected by the japan's laws. Sad to say this sort of thing has been going on for years. I've read so many similar stories that all end with there children lost in japan somewhere nearly almost always with the mother that is a citizen of japan.

Another story I read where a European dad paid his ex-Japanese wife $100,000 just to visit and see his daughter for the first time. The money was sent, but the daughter or her was nowhere to be found. However there is some break through were the foreign father gets to see his children but only after years have passed., I believe she turned 18 and searched to contact her father a truly touching moment.

For me personally I have no problems with international marriages, but when too people became hateful and deceitful to one another. The children are the ones to always to suffer, I believe they only considered there own wants and needs before the children.

If I had children I would never take them away from there mother and also i would not want there mother to take them away from me.

But I know not everyone shares my thoughts.

>AlvinXvv

That is really sad about the European dad. I am glad some fathers are able to be re-united eventually.
I truly believe Japan should sign the Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction, to help alleviate some of these cross-cultural legal issues.

>> however I believe Noriko knew that japan laws does not enforce child custody to foreign parents.
You make a valid point, however remember he is supposedly is a Japanese citizen, so foreign parent issue is moot.

Thanks for your thoughts!

i think the kids are lucky to escape having to live in the US.

The American media is not presenting all of the facts, and it's terrible. The News SHOULD be neutral, unbiased, trustworthy, and expected to cover everything.
They're omitting all these important facts, so that every blind American patriot will side with the father.
After reading everything that's not presented, I side with the mother.

Just a side note: 6 month wait before re-marriage is only applicable to females in order to make "clear" who is the father when she bears a kid. This old-school law doesn't applied to the husband.
(Apparently Japan still doesn't know how to do paternal DNA tests... :( )

Still, marring one month after the divorce is pretty sad...

>ルーク

Even having all the facts, they were living and soon after divorced in America. The mother claims she would stay in America. But later changes her mind and takes the children back to Japan without anyone's notice, his children just vanish. She just took their children in secret back to japan, I believe that to be deceitful..

She too had equal rights to the children in America, but those court laws are not recognized in japan. How is it fair to the father? I can understand a father not supporting his children or not wanting to be with them, but that is not the case he generally cares for them,


I wish I had a father that would travel half around the world to come see me.

The court proceedings would be far worse in japan for him....had they gotten a divorce there.


In all actually international marriages involving children are much more equal to "both parents" in America's legal systems.

First, an interesting take in the Japanese media:
"わが子『奪還』の米人元夫　略取容疑、日本で逮捕" >> http://www.tokyo-np.co.jp/article/world/news/CK2009093002000225.html

This is an interesting case for a few different reasons. First, there seems to be a media firestorm in the States on this issue, while here in Japan it’s rather quiet. I would wonder whether Savoie tipped the press about this issue before his arrival in Japan, just to see if he could get his way by using media-generated pressure. I think that’s pretty crappy: he’s well-off, and by that virtue alone his voice is heard louder in the press; I sigh at the agenda-setting bias that this has generated.
We haven’t heard his (ex-)wife’s full side of the story (perhaps because she’s a foreigner?), and everything up to now seems to be leaning in Savoie’s favor. In early reports, we heard a few comments that he has a temper, and that she has a temper; and what should have been settled privately has spilled into the international arena.
Debido Ardou offers an interesting point:
“However, with the Savoie case, Japan has earned a worldwide reputation as a safe haven for abductions. This is, given the inhuman North Korean kidnappings of Japanese, an ironic position to be in. ”
I think that many laws in Japan that deal with custody issues are rather antiquated by Western standards; further, they are purely inadequate at dealing with international issues which may arise. I think that if the events of this story help highlight these issues to Japanese lawmakers, and foster a bit of change in the system here, it’s fine.
Should Savoie get his kids back? Personally, as it sounds that he’s Japanese citizenship as well, he should have considered the legal ramifications of his actions more deeply. If he’s not considered as being divorced here, was he really “abducting” his kids from school? Why didn’t his wife get a restraining order against him in Japan, if she truly thought she/her children were in danger? Why did she flee in the first place--because she knew that absconding with her children would create a mess, but a mess in her favor? Before making hasty judgments I’d like to hear her side of the story.. .but as I’m sure she considers she’s done nothing wrong, I doubt we’ll ever hear it.

....but honestly, this thing sounded like some schoolyard thing: two kids buy a teddy bear together. One decides she wants it, so she takes it and runs off somewhere; the guy runs in pursuit so he can steal it back. But in this case, it's not a teddy bear: there are two young children who are being whisked around everywhich way. I almost wonder whether the government should place them in a temporary home and shelter them away from the ugliness their parents are dragging up; at least that way they might be able to continue their studies, etc. with as little external (i.e. parental) emotional interference.

7>>

If they'd gotten a divorce here, (in Japan), I’m sure she would be forthwith awarded custody, as per Japanese “tradition”; the fact that he didn’t file for divorce here is perhaps one of the things going in his favor, in terms of getting his kids back. That she took an oath in the States not to abscond, and that she reneged on that oath, is unconscionable; however, we don’t really know the entire depth of circumstances. Perhaps she felt for some reason that her life was threatened, and that the best way for she and her children to live was in Japan. Or perhaps she knew of the legal tangle her action would create (a simple Google search would yield as much), and decided to take her chances by separating fully from her (ex-)husband and getting what she wanted: a life with her children in Japan.

3>>
Hmmf. I wonder how many half-Kiwi/half-Japanese kids have endured a similar situation. Beyond that, I thank you for edifying us with your international outlook.

Sorry to hear of the trial your acquaintance endured; I think that's a miserable experience, for a loving parent to be separated from his/her daughter or son.
With respect to what's occurring here: I would agree that Japan should start considering certain aspects of its law in order to meet the times. In essence, that was one of the stated goals of the whole "citizen judge" system: to raise the public's awareness of, and confidence in, the law. However, under the current system, it seems that (a) the majority of Japan's citizens are unconcerned with the impact of law in their own society, insofar as a particular aspect of law doesn't affect them, and (b) the majority of Japanese seem to be quite content with accepting blindly the advice, guidance, and words from the omniscient legal Gods- -lawyers and judges- -whose advice is infallible and holy. Decisions that are made in this country can never be questioned (c.f. recent questions arising about the supposed guilty who have been sentenced, and it turns out they're not "not guilty", but completely innocent- -and the ensuing cognitive dissonance within the public). (Also c.f. the book, ｻﾙでもできる弁護士業)

Here, I am looking a bit broader and past the issue of child abduction (especially as, here, I am sure that Savoie will be saying, "I was just taking them back--she abducted them first!" Tut-tut) to the clash of differing legal systems. I would offer that, in a sense, this is drawing out another issue of Neo-imperialism, where a handful of Americans are outraged by a different way of thinking. (To this end, I wonder: who the hell were those people protesting outside the Japanese embassy in D.C.?) Japan, it seems, has been in the press quite a bit recently with respect to international relations: First it was the Taiji dolphin cull; then the PM's sentiments about trying to alter the way Japan does business and other things with America. For Taiji, people were saying that Japan's laws, policies and attitudes were backward and old; for the second, a bit of a backpeddle was made (blame the translators- -they hadn't understood the PM's true words). But the fact of the matter is, the American press has its sights set on Japan. I'm not quite sure why.

The thing is: American law isn't perfect (c.f. "Proxy wedding means Marine's widow, baby unwelcome" [AP] http://bit.ly/4hobCn; also consider that "common law" marriages are perhaps a better way of doing things, though certain pitfalls would still exist; consider as well that the US has ignored UN resolutions that have chided the nation for various practices; America essentially ignores said resolutions because: it can). Americans are charmed and wooed by TV shows like The Practice, and Law & Order into believing that ours is the best damned legal system on the face of the earth--but, in truth, nothing's perfect, and each society should be free to determine its own standards...to an extent. (I find it ironic how we, as Americans, enjoy singing about how free we are--but how our freedom gives us the right to impose on others our views on how they should be.)

And that "extent" is a pretty tricky area. I believe that the citizens of each nation should hear of the issues that citizens of other nations are facing, and should then consider rationally what direction they wish their own nation to go. And these things become laws- -or repealed laws.

Should the koseki (family register) system be improved, to allow for things like dual-custody of kids? From my perspective, yes. How? Good question. It's a question of altering or doing away with a tradition that has existed for ages, and compelling a people to reconsider how to define what is a family. (The whole "surrogate mother" issue would also have to be examined here as well.) But, barring some sort of settlement between the parents in the Savoie case, I don't foresee this issue resolving quickly by any means.

Final quick word, as I think this sums up much of my sentiment:
(From the AP, bit.ly/1DwNEP)
------------------------------
Crafton said she felt sorry for Christopher Savoie but did not approve of his actions.

"If he's really thinking of the kids, he shouldn't be doing some dramatic movie-type thing like snatching the kids," Crafton said. "He could have made other arrangements. He speaks Japanese very well and has Japanese citizenship."
--------------
Quite true. He could've petitioned here as well; why didn't he? He certainly has the money to build a good case...or perhaps he feared his infidelity would be a point against him?

Interesting take on the issue of joint custody in Japan:
"Divorced fathers in Japan fight to see children"
(http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iY2EqFFCeGoe1e7-f-0DF-85WBEwD9B6DCL00)

Yeah, this definitely puts a new light on the case. Until now, all I had read was the American media's version, which painted the situation as "a poor American victim trying desperately to save his kids from his horrible Japanese kidnapping ex-wife". Of course, this is the same media who told us that the 2016 Olympics were "in the bag" for Chicago before the votes were even cast.

I'm not saying I completely side with Noriko, but at least I know now that she is not the monster she's been portrayed to be, nor do I think Christopher is a 100% innocent victim.

To be fully honest, when I first started following this story, I thought: how dare she? And I immediately sided with the gaijin guy. A few minutes later, as I started reading and really thinking, I noticed that there were many things that just didn’t add up- -and what really started changing my perspective was my Spidey Sense tingling at the language that was being tossed around by the American media to describe different events. It was then that I realized: they’re agenda setting and siding with the poor rich whitey who just wants his kids back. I immediately started thinking: where is Noriko’s story?
Savoie seems to have been playing around on Noriko for a while (not sure why, because she’s quite beautiful- -Savoie’s new wife is a bit of a dog). I’m thinking that Noriko had enough of everything and probably had googled for similar situations, and knew that her actions would toss things into legal limbo for quite a bit- -in which time she could raise her children in Japan. I’m curious as to whether she had foreseen whether Savoie would follow her to Japan and attempt to re-abduct their children; in any case, neither party really seems to be considering the best interest of their children, and both parties seem at fault.
My prediction: the Japanese will hold Savoie in jail as long as legally possible and let him go. I am fairly certain that while he says he is feeling broken down whilst in jail, his hatred toward Noriko is mounting, and his resolve toward exacting some sort of retribution is only sharpening all the more. Ultimately, I think the cops will release him; he will assert that he was not abducting the children, but merely taking them home from school, as he is their legal father/guardian in Japan, and as he has Japanese citizenship; no charges will be filed. The cops will wait for the last minute to give him a period to attempt to cool off.
Noriko will either (a) be gone by the time he gets out, and will be relocated to another place entirely--in which case Savoie will have to make the decision whether to track her down himself (or, as he’s a millionaire, to hire someone to track her down), or to return to the States, or (b) continue life as usual, but in the meantime file a complaint or get a restraining order against Savoie, and wait for him to try and make sure there are witnesses around to have enough evidence so that Savoie goes to prison for kidnapping. In the meantime, she will probably not file for divorce just yet, as it might be in her best interest. She’ll try to be the best mother she can and keep her nose clean, so that when she files for divorce and custody, she gets both.

Oh...

"Was U.S. State Department Involved in Savoie's Plan?" >> http://www.newschannel5.com/Global/story.asp?S=11284242

For anyone who's interested, here's a transcript of the hearing for the TRO (temporary restraining order) that Christopher sought against Noriko:


http://wtvf.images.worldnow.com/images/incoming/Investigates/savoie1.pdf
http://wtvf.images.worldnow.com/images/incoming/Investigates/savoie2.pdf

And now, Savoie's attorney is alleging torture: http://wtvf.images.worldnow.com/images/incoming/Investigates/SavoieTorture.pdf

えもたん：

The United States does recognize dual citizenship, though they do not actively support it. Having said that, I totally agree with you that the father is now a Japanese citizen and is therefore completely under the Japanese jurisdiction.

I have not read all the responses here, but what I do know is that like ルーク said, the U.S. media are leaving out much of the critical details about the case. For one, I don't think they told us the mother wanted to file a divorce while they were in Japan but the father would not accept it until she was somehow convinced that they could start a new life back in the U.S. And then as soon as they landed on the U.S. soil the father filed for a divorce. A great example of "playing his own game."

I am truly sorry for both the mother and the children. I have zero sympathy whatsoever for the father.

Even if Savoie made mistakes, these kids are his, too, just as they are the mother's as well. When people divorce, they become themselves like children slinging dirt. If anything can be learned here, I think it's be careful about who you procreate with. LOL

19#,
He probably did that because he knew he'd have no chance at custody in Japan.

(^。^)y-.。o○ミー (#21)

I'd guess so, too. If you ask me, that doesn't make his act of divorcing Noriko right after he deceived her into coming to the U.S. any less disgusting. Moreover, he should have been ready to be judged under the Japanese laws once he decided to become a Japanese citizen.

People talk about Japan having to ratify the Hague Convention and all that. Well, isn't it the same Hague Convention that stands firmly against multiple citizenships? If the United States is serious about the Hague Convention, then they should not defend Savoie as an American now that he has been naturalized to Japan.

Well, it certainly does become a case of who abducted who, first--but I think that is a moot point, given that Christopher, Noriko, and the kids are in Japan, and that Japan does not recognize US law in this case. That being so, I do not understand under what reason Christopher is currently being detained. Remember, he should be treated as a Japanese citizen now, and the police have a right to detain up to a certain time period. After that period has elapsed, they must charge or release. As he is still considered the married Japanese father of two Japanese children, I am sure that his attorney is arguing that he has committed no crime: he picked up his children and wanted to go to the US embassy after school. It will certainly be interesting to see how that plays in courts here.

That said: I had initially sympathized with the gaijin dad because I am gaijin as well, and would be horrified if this same thing happened to me. However, I must say that dad has really played dirty since the beginning. He's the one who set things in motion by making it difficult for his children to leave the States, once there. He's the one who cheated on his wife while they were wed, and placed untold pressure on her to leave the States without her children; he's also the one who blathered everything to the press at the top of his millionaire lungs, and doubtlessly contacted the State Department and other officials on the matter as well. Noriko did something that any loving mother would do: to fight to the maximum limit to protect her children. Hell hath no fury, indeed; and Noriko will do everything in her power to ensure that no one absconds with her children.

I just hope that the two can work out some sort of visitation schedule and try to find an amicable solution here; however, as each party wholeheartedly believes they are in the right, and the other is so clearly in the wrong, this is a most remote possibility.

22#,
True, but even Japanese fathers don't deserve to be deleted from their children's lives. Of course, many don't contest the verdict, but there seems to be many coming out of the woodwork saying "I want to see my kids".That one story about the man who was granted 2 hours MEETING time every other month was particularlyheartbreaking.

I don't care about which side is "right". Both parents are messed up.
Japan isn't a third world country so the kids will be fine in either place (though I don't know how average Japanese feel about mixed children or how they may discriminate).

25#,
Fine means financially??? I grew up without my father and yes I'm "fine" financially, but as I got older, it became mentally hard to think that my father was out there somewhere and I couldn't see him. And my father CHOSE not to be with us. I can't imagine knowing my father wanted to see me and I wanted to see him, but was not allowed to.

25>>
Fundamentally I think I agree with what you're saying. IMHO, the kids spent the majority of their lives in Japan; let them live there as well. If they live in the States, I hope that they attend Japanese school during the week to assist with their shared heritage. Christopher would probably argue that he has the financial means to ensure the kids get an excellent education and upbringing; Noriko would argue that the two children must find a single place in which to grow up, and as they had spend much of their lives in Japan, their social network and education should begin here--and that Christopher should cut this pingpong crap.

@#26 (^。^)y-.。o○ミー

My father passed when I was 8, so I know some of what you mean (and no replacement either).

The father could easily live in Japan. Again I'm not really picking sides.

30#,
True, but the mother was also supposed to stay in the US according to US law, right?

I cant say that i'm an expert of any degree on japan or this story in particular so take what I say with a grain of salt.

In my mind this goes to show that its stupid to accept japanese nationality. I've read quite some stories that one is only seen as japanese if one looks japanese, i.e. the policeman at the corner will still see you as a gaijin, the judge will still see the gaijin, the clerk at the store will just see the gaijin, the embassy of japan personell will just see the gaijin.
So one gives up the rights and duties of their national country in exchange for all the duties but only some of the rights japan provides its citizens with. Do something wrong and you're the gaijin with a japanese passport.
Sure, the US should now not care any more since he is leagally not a US citizen any more. However the japanese reaction seems to show that he is not a citizen of japan either, does it not? So as far as I'm concerned he's a de jure citizen of japan and a de facto citizen of the US making him a .... stateless person?

As for the case... Both countries legal system and both parents are showing their worst side here. Since it has come to this I seriously doubt that there will be any understanding, Just look into what the children want and get it over with.

Better a painful end than an endless pain.

32 > Completely agreed. No idea why anyone would want to become a "citizen" of Japan. In fact, right away when I read that this Savoie guy was a citizen, I thought he must have some kind of screw loose. All of the drawbacks, none of the benefits. Why would anyone do that?

@(^。^)y-.。o○ミー #31

Yes. I think that from a purely legalistic standpoint she's the most in the wrong but the guy is deeply flawed (and I suspect she's not the brightest bulb either).

33#,
I could even see if he had planned on living in Japan, but he moved back to the States so I was like, WTF???

>>だいはど

Thank you for letting me know about the US gov. recognizing dual citizenship. When I was growing up this did not seem to be the case, but as mentioned in this FAQ: http://www.richw.org/dualcit/faq.html#noway it seems it is allowed now.

That being said, Japan doesn't normally support dual citizenship (officially as far as I know) so I still believe like you, that he should follow the Japanese rules as he is a naturalized Japanese citizen. I also believe that the father was abusing the US legal system to essentially "abduct" the children from the mom in the first place by saying she was an "unfit mother" after tricking Noriko to come to the US.

I read a pdf of some of the court transcripts, and clearly Noriko is not too bright (God only knows why she could not hire a translator for the court session or her lawyer), nor was her lawyer (her own lawyer originally got the year of the divorce wrong!), but at least the judge was quite fair and just in his ruling.

Time will tell how this case unfolds. While I understandably pity the kids , I also pity the father and mother for very different reasons.