i juss joined this community
it seems like a good community..
no offence but,, it seems like most of the japanese are crap at speaking english..
there are some japanese in my school, its hard to communicate with them in english, because the way they speak english has too much japanese accent in it.. hehe
i think japanese language is opposing the english language in a way..they are like two languages directly opposing each other.so its hard for japanese to learn english..
so what do u guys think about that?????
anyway, i would like to make friends with ppl whos in this community.so dont be shy to leave me a comment or send me a message
^^
peace out
it seems like a good community..
no offence but,, it seems like most of the japanese are crap at speaking english..
there are some japanese in my school, its hard to communicate with them in english, because the way they speak english has too much japanese accent in it.. hehe
i think japanese language is opposing the english language in a way..they are like two languages directly opposing each other.so its hard for japanese to learn english..
so what do u guys think about that?????
anyway, i would like to make friends with ppl whos in this community.so dont be shy to leave me a comment or send me a message
^^
peace out
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コメント(54)
Wow. A lot of people has already made comments on this topic. It's interesting to see those comments.
As far as I concerned, hyde was a bit reluctant to be reserved from what he really meant in "no offence". Although I think he should have been careful about the choice of the words, by no means, we should assume that he was actually picking up any small mistakes of ours in detail and criticizing them to the extreme.
Also, I don't want to emphasize about the negative side of his comments at all since this is the place to communicate with other people. So, let's just not be alarmed by the topics like that. I don't want anybody to be discouraged to post their opinions or comments.
Cheers
As far as I concerned, hyde was a bit reluctant to be reserved from what he really meant in "no offence". Although I think he should have been careful about the choice of the words, by no means, we should assume that he was actually picking up any small mistakes of ours in detail and criticizing them to the extreme.
Also, I don't want to emphasize about the negative side of his comments at all since this is the place to communicate with other people. So, let's just not be alarmed by the topics like that. I don't want anybody to be discouraged to post their opinions or comments.
Cheers
wow. I like how intellectual this discussion has gotten. My personal feeling wasn't nearly that smart.
I suppose all I can say to you "hyde" is look at how many foreigners are able to hold any form of conversation in Japanese. the number is very small when you look at the numbers of Japanese people whose English might not be perfect, but they try and can do fairly well.
Communication, to me, is about trying to listen to people despite differences. We normally assume those differences are age, gender, interests or religion but native tongue is no different. If you're having difficulty communicating with your classmates maybe you're not being a good enough listener?
I suppose all I can say to you "hyde" is look at how many foreigners are able to hold any form of conversation in Japanese. the number is very small when you look at the numbers of Japanese people whose English might not be perfect, but they try and can do fairly well.
Communication, to me, is about trying to listen to people despite differences. We normally assume those differences are age, gender, interests or religion but native tongue is no different. If you're having difficulty communicating with your classmates maybe you're not being a good enough listener?
A few quick comments:
I agree with many people commenting before me. Though I believe you didn't mean to be offensive, the way you convey your idea should have offended many Japanese. It's our culture. If you wanna find Japanese girlfriend as you say in your profile, I advise you to be more sensitive on this kind of issues.
Anyway, you are right. Japanese is so different from English. The difference in the order of nouns, verbs, adjectives are totally annoying. I didn't get why most emotions have to be expressed in passive sentence in English. English doesn't have a lot of expressions which can avoid making my position clearly for or against ideas, while Japanese has tons of them. These things contribute to prevent Japanese people from mastering English.
Lastly, I had a few Chinese friends when I was in the US. I felt Chinese people also left a lot of Chinese accents in their English too, and had some difficulty communicating with them. Most foreign English speakers have the same problem. As long as I can understand what they mean at last, I don't really care whether I have some difficulty or not.
I agree with many people commenting before me. Though I believe you didn't mean to be offensive, the way you convey your idea should have offended many Japanese. It's our culture. If you wanna find Japanese girlfriend as you say in your profile, I advise you to be more sensitive on this kind of issues.
Anyway, you are right. Japanese is so different from English. The difference in the order of nouns, verbs, adjectives are totally annoying. I didn't get why most emotions have to be expressed in passive sentence in English. English doesn't have a lot of expressions which can avoid making my position clearly for or against ideas, while Japanese has tons of them. These things contribute to prevent Japanese people from mastering English.
Lastly, I had a few Chinese friends when I was in the US. I felt Chinese people also left a lot of Chinese accents in their English too, and had some difficulty communicating with them. Most foreign English speakers have the same problem. As long as I can understand what they mean at last, I don't really care whether I have some difficulty or not.
THe problem is the next 100 years, anything can happen. 10years ago, who would have expected the US to become the most powerful country in the world? Granted, the US was growing rapidly, but it was still a relative newcomer compared to the world powers in Europe. Only after WWI and WWII did the US really come into the fore. Or how about Japan? 100 years ago who would have expected Japan to be the #2 economy in the world? The thing is 100 years is too long to forecast. China could have a nuclear accident and cause the country to become a barren wasteland....
If China is to take over, then it would happen in 20 years not 100... Having said that, there are still many obstacles China must overcome before it is ready to become the world leader.
If China is to take over, then it would happen in 20 years not 100... Having said that, there are still many obstacles China must overcome before it is ready to become the world leader.
Having an accent is not the problem, It is the combination of the accent and the lack of understanding of the grammatical form. As an Enlish speaker, one can have an English, Scottish, Ausitralian, US (etc.) accent and none are really considered to be the mainstream or accepted pronunciation. The diction and the vocabulary is also different for the different tongues. However, the general grammatical form remains the same, allowing for comprehension among the speakers.
In most cases, even a non-native speaker, who has an accent in English is understood when the grammar is properly utilized. However, comprehension is lost when the speaker does not use the proper grammar, as the listener, who already has some difficulty understanding the words must piece together some logic from the jumble of words coming from the mouth of the speaker. If proper grammar is used, one can surmise the meaning without hearing all the words. When proper grammar is not used, the listener must use the context of conversation and the set of words that do not properly construct a sentence and discern meaning. When the words are not properly pronounced, this becomes increasingly difficult and the discussion becomes misconstrued. Connotation and subtlety are clearly lost and just the most rudimentary of understanding exists. While this may sound a bit simplified, I believe the basic argument holds true.
In most cases, even a non-native speaker, who has an accent in English is understood when the grammar is properly utilized. However, comprehension is lost when the speaker does not use the proper grammar, as the listener, who already has some difficulty understanding the words must piece together some logic from the jumble of words coming from the mouth of the speaker. If proper grammar is used, one can surmise the meaning without hearing all the words. When proper grammar is not used, the listener must use the context of conversation and the set of words that do not properly construct a sentence and discern meaning. When the words are not properly pronounced, this becomes increasingly difficult and the discussion becomes misconstrued. Connotation and subtlety are clearly lost and just the most rudimentary of understanding exists. While this may sound a bit simplified, I believe the basic argument holds true.
hyde
I think you should stop insulting people, although I won't keep you from posting the comment here. I thought you weren't offensive as the others did comment on this thread unless you said something like the above. But I read what you wrote there and made me re-think what you really are. You cannot just generalize everything with your own perspective. There would be something you would have never known before. And that's always something intrigues your surprises... You said that normally cantonese people can speak both Cantonese and Mandarin, although they tend to speak (or prefer speaking) Cantonese. I understand that since I have Chinese friends from southern parts of China and they can speak both Cantonese and Mandarin. But the next thing that you said made me kinda sad. You shouldn't have said that if their mandarin is at standard level. What does it mean exactly? You meant that that woman would have understood if they had spoken a perfect Mandarin? I really don't think that would be the case. My chinese friend didn't speak to his chinese friend if he would know that he or she only speak Cantonese because he would only be communicated in Mandarin. He said that the characters are the same in both chinese but when it comes to speaking, he couldn't fully communicate with the person who can only speak Cantonese. The words are different and as you can refer from the experience in a local language, there are a lot of dialect which can make Cantonese sound really different from Mandarin. So, I don't think that woman at the store would have understood, even if they had spoken a perfect Mandarin to her. That's my opinion, hyde.
I just wanted to say that you cannot pick somebody up and try to make s/he embarrased with a high opinion of yours. Obviously none of us here had travelled enough to say something perfect but what we all can do is to appreciate every comment here and make some comment on it. Don't need to be such a harsh to anybody.
I think you should stop insulting people, although I won't keep you from posting the comment here. I thought you weren't offensive as the others did comment on this thread unless you said something like the above. But I read what you wrote there and made me re-think what you really are. You cannot just generalize everything with your own perspective. There would be something you would have never known before. And that's always something intrigues your surprises... You said that normally cantonese people can speak both Cantonese and Mandarin, although they tend to speak (or prefer speaking) Cantonese. I understand that since I have Chinese friends from southern parts of China and they can speak both Cantonese and Mandarin. But the next thing that you said made me kinda sad. You shouldn't have said that if their mandarin is at standard level. What does it mean exactly? You meant that that woman would have understood if they had spoken a perfect Mandarin? I really don't think that would be the case. My chinese friend didn't speak to his chinese friend if he would know that he or she only speak Cantonese because he would only be communicated in Mandarin. He said that the characters are the same in both chinese but when it comes to speaking, he couldn't fully communicate with the person who can only speak Cantonese. The words are different and as you can refer from the experience in a local language, there are a lot of dialect which can make Cantonese sound really different from Mandarin. So, I don't think that woman at the store would have understood, even if they had spoken a perfect Mandarin to her. That's my opinion, hyde.
I just wanted to say that you cannot pick somebody up and try to make s/he embarrased with a high opinion of yours. Obviously none of us here had travelled enough to say something perfect but what we all can do is to appreciate every comment here and make some comment on it. Don't need to be such a harsh to anybody.
Hyde,
I am pretty sure you are a smart kid and must have a little talent in language studying.
Though your posts appear to have a bit Chinglish writings inside I believe you will be a fluent English (or even Japanese) speaker some day. However, like many others who have already made their comments, I don't really understand the reason why you posted this topic.
If you had written all these simply because of emotional factors against Japanese, I think you have selected the wrong place to go, for every one here is purely concerned about English, not race.
If you had joined the community hoping to make some friends, I suggest you should behave yourself, be more considerate, and think it twice before you click the confirmation button to post your comment.
If you had posted this topic hoping to have a discussion on the difference between Japanese and English, I suggest you should back yourself with more logical supportings and use less emotional wordings like “It seems”, “I think” and “Normally”, all of which are too vague and too weak to be used in a discussion or a debate.
Last but not least, throwing out a stereotype for discussion is meaningless, or in a sense, naive.
My 2 cents.
I am pretty sure you are a smart kid and must have a little talent in language studying.
Though your posts appear to have a bit Chinglish writings inside I believe you will be a fluent English (or even Japanese) speaker some day. However, like many others who have already made their comments, I don't really understand the reason why you posted this topic.
If you had written all these simply because of emotional factors against Japanese, I think you have selected the wrong place to go, for every one here is purely concerned about English, not race.
If you had joined the community hoping to make some friends, I suggest you should behave yourself, be more considerate, and think it twice before you click the confirmation button to post your comment.
If you had posted this topic hoping to have a discussion on the difference between Japanese and English, I suggest you should back yourself with more logical supportings and use less emotional wordings like “It seems”, “I think” and “Normally”, all of which are too vague and too weak to be used in a discussion or a debate.
Last but not least, throwing out a stereotype for discussion is meaningless, or in a sense, naive.
My 2 cents.
Gee, how the hell did I miss this topic.
> 1
> Once you get to about 13 years old, the chances
> are if you then learn a language you will have an accent.
Really? I knew that older you are when you start learning, less likely a language sticks with you, but ... I didn't know that it was about 13. Then I guess that'd explain things a bit because we used to start learning English in middle school (or junior high school, whichever you wanna call it) at the age of 12-13. Nowadays, though, they are making elementary school kids learn English, too, so I hear.
I guess I personally got lucky. Although I started learning English at age 13 like everyone else, because I was sent to foreign countries after the age of 15 and spent some time not using Japanese at all, English became like my native tongue. Of course, it boggles my mind when people say:
- "Your English has this Scandinavian accent!"
- "Wow, you speak Japanese very well! Where did you learn it?"
- "Oh, you can actually speak Japanese? But your Japanese has funny accent."
... Leave me alone ...
> 1
> Once you get to about 13 years old, the chances
> are if you then learn a language you will have an accent.
Really? I knew that older you are when you start learning, less likely a language sticks with you, but ... I didn't know that it was about 13. Then I guess that'd explain things a bit because we used to start learning English in middle school (or junior high school, whichever you wanna call it) at the age of 12-13. Nowadays, though, they are making elementary school kids learn English, too, so I hear.
I guess I personally got lucky. Although I started learning English at age 13 like everyone else, because I was sent to foreign countries after the age of 15 and spent some time not using Japanese at all, English became like my native tongue. Of course, it boggles my mind when people say:
- "Your English has this Scandinavian accent!"
- "Wow, you speak Japanese very well! Where did you learn it?"
- "Oh, you can actually speak Japanese? But your Japanese has funny accent."
... Leave me alone ...
well, i've got a lot of japanese friends here in new york. i listen to them carefully. even those that can't speak english well, i can often understand. it just takes some patience. take time to listen and think about what they are trying to say.
can't people have a little patience!?
:^|
if i'm trying to speak nihon-go, i want my japanese friends to listen carefully and try. not just say, 'You're so poor at speaking!!'
can't people have a little patience!?
:^|
if i'm trying to speak nihon-go, i want my japanese friends to listen carefully and try. not just say, 'You're so poor at speaking!!'
This is a discussion forum and everyone should be free to state their point of view without restriction , and i did not intend to insult anyone by my statements, it is how u have interpreted my views that has made the difference....
For those people who want to make a big deal out of my statements, i couldn't care less about what u think and go ahead and keep thinking that this is "naive" to urself.
For those people who want to make a big deal out of my statements, i couldn't care less about what u think and go ahead and keep thinking that this is "naive" to urself.
Interesting...
Hyde, you state that
"This is a discussion forum and everyone should be free to state their point of view without restriction".
Then why do you say
"i couldn't care less about what u think and go ahead and keep thinking that this is "naive" to urself. "
???
You are the one that put this topic up and you don't listen to ones telling you something? Is it because they tell you something you don't want to hear?
If you really didn't mean to insult anyone, then you might want to restate your comment on the topic because it really does sound rather rude in some parts.
To start, would you like to explain which part of "it seems like most of the japanese are crap at speaking english.. there are some japanese in my school, its hard to communicate with them in english, because the way they speak english has too much japanese accent in it.. hehe" is NOT insulting? If you don't have an answer for this, then you should learn how to use proper English.
If you really would like to "discuss", then you should learn how to "discuss" before putting out a topic.
Having said that, to "discuss" your topic, I have met quite a few asian students learning English and there are always the ones having a hard time speaking English. I suppose the major reason for it is that Japanese students tend to be intimidated to speak in English becuase many of them are afraid of making mistakes. I found that Chinese people are fine with making mistakes so that it looks like they could speak English better than the others. Of course it doesn't mean every Chinese people speaks English better than all the other English learners. It is a difference in how they learn English in their own country.
Japanese and English are quite different in Grammer. I agree with that part. However, as long as you try to translate English into your own language, you will never be fluent in the language you are learning. Thus, it doesn't really matter if a grammer is totally different or not. It might help understand how the other language works if grammer is similar, but after learning for a certain period of time, you need to get beyond "translating everything".
There are lots of Japanese who speak English without much problems. Isn't it the same with all the other people from different countries??
By the way, here is a tip to you.
If you really think most Japanese are crap at speaking English, then it means you only know few of them. You seems smart, but you need to be a little smarter to get to know the other people. I don't think you could make Japanese friends if you stay the way you are now.
Please excuse my looooong comment...
Hyde, you state that
"This is a discussion forum and everyone should be free to state their point of view without restriction".
Then why do you say
"i couldn't care less about what u think and go ahead and keep thinking that this is "naive" to urself. "
???
You are the one that put this topic up and you don't listen to ones telling you something? Is it because they tell you something you don't want to hear?
If you really didn't mean to insult anyone, then you might want to restate your comment on the topic because it really does sound rather rude in some parts.
To start, would you like to explain which part of "it seems like most of the japanese are crap at speaking english.. there are some japanese in my school, its hard to communicate with them in english, because the way they speak english has too much japanese accent in it.. hehe" is NOT insulting? If you don't have an answer for this, then you should learn how to use proper English.
If you really would like to "discuss", then you should learn how to "discuss" before putting out a topic.
Having said that, to "discuss" your topic, I have met quite a few asian students learning English and there are always the ones having a hard time speaking English. I suppose the major reason for it is that Japanese students tend to be intimidated to speak in English becuase many of them are afraid of making mistakes. I found that Chinese people are fine with making mistakes so that it looks like they could speak English better than the others. Of course it doesn't mean every Chinese people speaks English better than all the other English learners. It is a difference in how they learn English in their own country.
Japanese and English are quite different in Grammer. I agree with that part. However, as long as you try to translate English into your own language, you will never be fluent in the language you are learning. Thus, it doesn't really matter if a grammer is totally different or not. It might help understand how the other language works if grammer is similar, but after learning for a certain period of time, you need to get beyond "translating everything".
There are lots of Japanese who speak English without much problems. Isn't it the same with all the other people from different countries??
By the way, here is a tip to you.
If you really think most Japanese are crap at speaking English, then it means you only know few of them. You seems smart, but you need to be a little smarter to get to know the other people. I don't think you could make Japanese friends if you stay the way you are now.
Please excuse my looooong comment...
Calm down dear, its only happening in your small world!
(<- anyone got this? any brits?)
although im not sure if its your personality or limited Eng language ability, the way you had written up there actually gave me a rather abrupt + blunt impression.
if youd like to pal up with japanese ppl, i really dont think its a good idea for you to generalise anyone like that as soooo many ppl already pointed out.
lastly, to answer your q, yup, i do think it is extremely difficult for loads of japanese ppl to be completely fluent in eng in general and vice versa... those two languages have so little in common as you know.
but mind you, look at my first sentence once again plz... i hope you will pop out of your narrow-minded world and be considerate towards ppl still leaning a foreign language.
(<- anyone got this? any brits?)
although im not sure if its your personality or limited Eng language ability, the way you had written up there actually gave me a rather abrupt + blunt impression.
if youd like to pal up with japanese ppl, i really dont think its a good idea for you to generalise anyone like that as soooo many ppl already pointed out.
lastly, to answer your q, yup, i do think it is extremely difficult for loads of japanese ppl to be completely fluent in eng in general and vice versa... those two languages have so little in common as you know.
but mind you, look at my first sentence once again plz... i hope you will pop out of your narrow-minded world and be considerate towards ppl still leaning a foreign language.
I thought you were expecting comments from the others.
And I cannot agree more with you that this is a discussion forum and everyone should be free to state his/her comment.
Yet, I do wonder if this freedom is really not subject to any conditions.
Others have already mentioned lot on the language side. Let's do a bit logical thinking on communication this time. According to what you mentioned,
1) Between you and your Japanese classmates, its their problem of pronounciation that becomes the obstable in the communication.
=> Problem of the message sender.
2) In this forum, its not your intention to be offensive, but all others' interpretation that made the difference.
==> Problem of the message receiver.
So which side, the message sender or the message receiver, do you think should bear more responsibility in the communication?
And I cannot agree more with you that this is a discussion forum and everyone should be free to state his/her comment.
Yet, I do wonder if this freedom is really not subject to any conditions.
Others have already mentioned lot on the language side. Let's do a bit logical thinking on communication this time. According to what you mentioned,
1) Between you and your Japanese classmates, its their problem of pronounciation that becomes the obstable in the communication.
=> Problem of the message sender.
2) In this forum, its not your intention to be offensive, but all others' interpretation that made the difference.
==> Problem of the message receiver.
So which side, the message sender or the message receiver, do you think should bear more responsibility in the communication?
hmmm
ofcourse its difficult to speak english for pple from other country! especially for Asians. itz not only for a japanese.
well as a japanese who learnin english, i think its enough that people able to communicate with others.
isnt it enough??
I never be a PERFECT speaker,
because I am not Native english speaker.
and i think its okey.
ofcourse its difficult to speak english for pple from other country! especially for Asians. itz not only for a japanese.
well as a japanese who learnin english, i think its enough that people able to communicate with others.
isnt it enough??
I never be a PERFECT speaker,
because I am not Native english speaker.
and i think its okey.
>Hyde
Learn something about Japanese Language, then you will know the reason ^ ^
・The basic word order in Japanese sentence is quite different from that in English. ex. E: S+V+O J: S+O+V
・There is no "R" pronunciaton in Japanese. so the "R" pronunciation of most Japanese are quite similar with "L". ex. Ready -> `L`eady
・Usually Japanese are sensible and have high pride, so it`s better to be careful with your words/diction when you communicate with them, or you will hurt their feelings.
GoodLuck!
Japanese language↓
http://web.mit.edu/jpnet/articles/JapaneseLanguage.html
Learn something about Japanese Language, then you will know the reason ^ ^
・The basic word order in Japanese sentence is quite different from that in English. ex. E: S+V+O J: S+O+V
・There is no "R" pronunciaton in Japanese. so the "R" pronunciation of most Japanese are quite similar with "L". ex. Ready -> `L`eady
・Usually Japanese are sensible and have high pride, so it`s better to be careful with your words/diction when you communicate with them, or you will hurt their feelings.
GoodLuck!
Japanese language↓
http://web.mit.edu/jpnet/articles/JapaneseLanguage.html
HI All
This commuity looks good so here I am to join you guys. Well, I didn't go through to read all of the messages whatever you wrote, since there are tans! haha
I just want to use my Eng somewhere as much as I could. To do that, being a member of this community would be a great idea, which I thought.
Alright, I'll try to write up something more later on.
Thanks for reading my message, though.
KEIKO
This commuity looks good so here I am to join you guys. Well, I didn't go through to read all of the messages whatever you wrote, since there are tans! haha
I just want to use my Eng somewhere as much as I could. To do that, being a member of this community would be a great idea, which I thought.
Alright, I'll try to write up something more later on.
Thanks for reading my message, though.
KEIKO
- mixiユーザー
- ログインしてコメントしよう！
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