☆ENGLISH ONLY☆コミュのWho is an American?

Seriously, I'm just really sick of the hate that goes on in all of Mixi on us. We all have feelings -yes-, but that doesn't mean we should go around and harp on something 24/7. Man, this always turns personal. Maybe because the other side likes to make big generic stereotypical accusations.

The reason I'm so "America, Yay" (apparently), is because if my family hadn't moved there, I would be dead. Either by the Nazi's (which killed off a good quarter of my family in Greece), or by famine in Ireland. Yay personal @.@!

I don't know why people think we're all "rah rah" about our country. Hell, I dislike it here at the moment. It's not about being patriotic, it's about being appreciative about what you have. I'd say "Yay freedom of speech/freedom of religion", but lately that is going away here.

We aren't perfect, but we aren't all FOX watchers. God, people that think all of us watch that bullshit are pretty much uninformed. Screw FOX, haha. That is the worst of the country.

Anyways, I'm done. I hope I can start to continuously hate on other countries and get away with it. Freedom to express myself! :) Because honestly, some people from those countries make their homeland look bad =/.


Yay emotions.

116: りかぴょん

No, you're not *all* FOX News viewers, but FOX ratings ARE very high, even though they are at the extreme end in the propaganda stakes. What does that tell you? What's the point of staying in denial about factual information? I'm not talking about you personally, I am talking about a large number of Americans.

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I would say to the Americans in mixi who feel the need to keep defending your country against critics like me, I personally don't hate any nation or group of people. But if you want me to take you seriously, get over this idea that America represents some sort of ideal to be held up to the rest of the world. Get over being so defensive about your nation and so self-absorbed by it.

Freedom of speech? Well, you trumpet it more than any other nation, but have you got more of it than other developed countries? Or perhaps less?

When American people are critical of the govt in the US, they are often labelled "anti-American", suggesting that free speech is against the American ethos. I never get called anti-Australian for criticising my govt's role in Iraq. I get called anti-govt, which I am.

Freedom of religion? Well, yes, but you have this interminable debating dichotomy between the powerful right wing religious groups and the liberals who don't want a Christmas tree or a crucifix or the hint of a prayer to be suggested on public-owned premises. Your nation is just neurotic about these things.

You (as a nation) hold up the American Constitution like it was the tablet handed to Moses by God. I'm not saying it is without merit, but it is thanks to this document perhaps that you are the most litigious nation on earth, that you are obsessed with the separation of church and state, and that you have by far the most deaths by guns in the world.

The total number of gun deaths per 100,000 population (2001 stats) is:
Japan - 0.07..... England/ Wales - 0.4..... Germany - 1.44
Israel - 2.56..... Australia - 2.94..... Belgium - 3.32
Canada - 3.95..... Norway - 4.23..... Austria - 4.48
France - 5.48..... Finland - 6.65..... USA - 13.47

Finland has no prohibitions on gun ownership and their mortality from guns is very high, but it is only high for gun suicide, not gun homicide.

The US figure for gun deaths per 100,000 is more than double its nearest rival. And when you compare America's figure with England or Japan, it is unbelievable that so many Americans want to defend (until death apparently) the Constitution's Second Amendment (as they interpret it in any case).

Every country has its good and bad aspects. Why I react to Americans talking about their country so often is because they are trying to "preach" America, and sell its mythology as though it is a beacon to the world and the one and only hope of future world peace and prosperity. The sub text is: "God bless America, and America will save the world (whether they want it or not)".

If I was to live somewhere outside my country, I quite honestly would rather live in Japan, Denmark, France, Germany, New Zealand, and a dozen other countries, including Canada, before the US.

The US is on the whole a good country and a responsible world citizen. But with many serious reservations. And, if you would just stop being so up yourselves and taking yourselves so seriously you might just get along better with many of us in the rest of the world like me. If you're not into that, fine. But don't get surprised when I and others criticise you then.

If more of you Americans talked like 54: Wavebird-9 波鳥っ九, it would be a pleasure to have real dialog with you.

Very good points. I have to say I cannot disagree with anything you say.

What does Semper Fi mean? It sounds like Seig Heil in American.

121>> It means "Always Faithful".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semper_Fi

Oh no, it's for England and even Switzerland too. Better start insulting them ;).

120>>
It was morning, and I am super touchy at 7:30 AM. One thing that always gets me about gun stats is that everyone forgets that the US is larger than, lets say, Japan. Not that I am defending our gun use (as I don't use them and will never own one), but I am just pointing that out.

I'm not taking myself seriously, I'm just trying to understand why people from different countries think it's 'cool' to talk dirt about the US and then go eat at a McDonalds or put on a pair of blue jeans. I'm not saying "AMERICA IS THE BEST" (because it's far from that), but it does have it's high points in history. Please don't think that we're horrible just because of our presidents (since most of us didn't vote for this 'president' anyways).

"Freedom of religion? Well, yes, but you have this interminable debating dichotomy between the powerful right wing religious groups and the liberals who don't want a Christmas tree or a crucifix or the hint of a prayer to be suggested on public-owned premises. Your nation is just neurotic about these things. "

Yes, it is. Most of us don't want religion forced down our throats, it is true. I think that prayer is for church/synagogue/mosques only. We have an extreme group of Christians that have led a lot of the American public to become sick of religion in the public.

Anyways, since I'm not mature enough to speak my mind, I'll leave it at that (unless someone thinks I am entitled to my opinion).

116> Correct.

チャン> "I find American nationalism frequently nauseating"

Could it be because you think are better than Americans?
Are you jealous?

""It is because of USA people are paranoid about getting blown up in the first place. Einstein." - hahaha... ROFL. Good one"

That's no laughing matter, and it was Oppenhiemer who invented the atomic bomb so.....


"No, you're not *all* FOX News viewers, but FOX ratings ARE very high"

Yeah because it's good TV! I hate Bill O'Reilly, but I love the way he says "shut up!" to his quests - you do the math there. Love 24 too...

"You (as a nation) hold up the American Constitution like it was the tablet handed to Moses by God. I'm not saying it is without merit"

What's wrong with that? And "not without merit"!?
I'm sorry but it sounds like you have already decided that you dislike America before anykind of objective analysis, which prompts you to grudgingly say things like "I'm not saying it is without merit" when referring the American Constitution.
It is the best blueprint for a country, anywhere on earth, in the history of civilization. Without any doubt. Ask any lawyer, or someone who knows something about law - and they'll confirm as much.
And all you can say is : "not saying it is without merit"?
how does that look to you?


"you are obsessed with the separation of church and state"

And so they should be. So should you, you are from Australia right? Secular Democracy is the greatest social invention in the history of mankind. And if we didn't obsess to protect it we'd all be paying taxes to the Church for no reason, starting holy wars, and punishing/killing anyone who didn't believe - all state sanctioned.
You want a caliphate like Bin-Laden or what?

"you have by far the most deaths by guns in the world"

Yeah we've never seen those stats before. Real news for me personally. Sure America has a hideous problem with gun-crime, that won't get addressed because of powerful lobbyists....and?
Should we switch the talk around to the way Australia treats it's Aboriginal population? I wonder what the average Aboriginie's opinion of Australia is? Maybe we could draw up some stats on that....
No nation is without problems - everyone comes up with that gem of observation, but what no-one wants to admit is America *does* have the best ideology. It does. If you disagree that's fine, but trying to paint Australia's foundation, the UK's foundation, the EU's constitution, etc as actually better or more righteous in principle than the US is just flat out wrong.
Yeah yeah yeah we know "but America says this and does this..." etc. Grow up man, that sounds like an argument a 10 year old would come up with quite frankly.
Further, to snipe America for it's foreign policy but at the same time take cheap shots at the domestic gun problem is coarse and uneducated to say the least.
If you see the two as being indelibly linked then, you don't know as much as you think you do about politics.
I'm no expert, but I'm more than pretty sure that the NRA doesn't get a say in what the US's strategy overseas for the next 10 years is going to be....

"they are trying to "preach" America"

Sure they might be. Don't you think you are preaching in your posts?

"it is a beacon to the world and the one and only hope of future world peace and prosperity"

Well I think people get angry about that because deep down they want to believe it....
I've never, once in my life, ever heard an American citizen tell me that. I haven't seen any of the Americans on here "preaching" it. So where do you get it from?
Movies and Politicians.
If you believe either it says more about you than it does American citizens.

Well, チャン I didn't want to pick on you, but like りかぴょん said this whole thing is a bit tiresome and more than a little cringeworthy....
Don't be so quick to present your judgements of other people or nations - especially if you can't be objective, as factual or true.
No, bashing America because FOX gets good numbers and you buy so easily into Politicians spiel, and quoting some gun mortalities here and there, then at the end saying "The US is on the whole a good country and a responsible world citizen" isn't being objective. Although you might think it.


hope you understand.

(I'm British by the way)

"Oh no, it's for England and even Switzerland too. Better start insulting them ;).

It still sounds like Seig Heil only in American.

......

You sould look up the word nationalism on wikipedia. Jelous of what? Their millitary? Thats my point. Semper Fi sounds like Seig Heil in American.

Whoever holds an American passport is clearly an American in my book!!!

125> yeah I just had a look at that on wiki. Interesting to see there are actually over half a dozen different strains of "nationalism".

"Jelous of what?"

Yeah, scratch the Jealous question....Here's the real question

『"I find American nationalism frequently nauseating"

Could it be because you think are better than Americans?』

Try and think about it.
Even if America bashers still say "no", the way you guys frame your points just makes everyone else go "yes"....

A PITBULL IS AMERICAN! SO DOES A PITBULL HAVE THE RIGHT FOR AN AMERICAN PASSPORT? BECAUSE THAT DOG IS A TRUE AMERICAN PRODUCT, THE PRIDE OF THE USA.

Goooo PITBULLS!!!

I thought Trucks were the Pride of the USA =D

ハービック > Semper Fi is a term used by Marines in America. It has nothing to do with the Average American. It has to do with Marines and their Pride for being Marines.. And the history of Marines.

Your average American doesn't even know the meaning of "Semper Fi" nor do they care..

So saying it sounds like an American "Seig Heil" is utterly ridicules. It means "Always Faithful"
What's wrong with that?

What, Might I ask is wrong with "FOX TV". It's like any other TV station with MOVIES. Unless your actually talking about "FOX NEWS" which is a bunch of Liberal Bullshit (Pardon my French)

And the whole Gun thing is whole other argument.
If were going to talk about Gun Crimes we might as well start a whole other thread. I myself as a person, not as an American, see anything wrong with guns. I love guns, I own guns.

I agree with everything #123 said.

I still have yet to see anyone try and Force feed the American way down anyones throat.

I still ask, What's wrong with National Pride..?

And 115: チャン some of the things you said makes sense. But I do wonder, were do you base your opinions? Off of stuff you read? Statistics are just statistics. It doesn't mean anything. It only reflects the views of a Majority of people. But not the American people as a whole. Unless your walking door to door asking people questions...

I am still young, I don't fully understand the Mechanics of everything. So i can't put up a great conversation. But i dislike when people try and picture American's as one thing.

With out even speaking to the Majority of people.
TV and Newspaper's are just pure Publicity. It doesn't show nor express the views of everyone.

Sorry for the length of this post, but it didn't seem to make sense to answer so many points without quoting the original post. I would have answered them without quoting them if they were more coherent and I could summarise the points prior to my answer. As it was, I couldn't remember all the rambling points without having them in front of me as I responded. Please skip this lengthy post if it bothers you.

> 123: ...

Well, pity you decided to "pick on" me as you put it. I would have preferred if you wanted to argue facts, but to pick on me is what you did.

I don't particularly want to argue all this stuff with a POM. I don't care if you are a supporter or detractor of the US. That's not my concern. I simply think that the US in general and some of its citizens really encourage criticism from the rest of world by their attitudes and then wonder why they get criticised. So I ventured on a vain attempt to enlighten them as to how others see them. They don't seem to be that interested. Those Americans who do understand this are great people. It's just that there are not enough of them.

I don't see why the great America needs you to bat for them. But just out of respect to you addressing me, I'll respond. Take it or leave it.

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"Could it be because you think are better than Americans?
Are you jealous?"

I think I am better than which American / Americans? Than all Americans? Why would I even think about such a proposition? It's of no value. Jealous? Absolutely not. There is nothing to be jealous of.

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""It is because of USA people are paranoid about getting blown up in the first place. Einstein." - hahaha... ROFL. Good one""

"That's no laughing matter, and it was Oppenhiemer who invented the atomic bomb so....."

The joke is not in reference to the bombing, it is in the lack of logic of the poster being referred to. You missed the point, and therefore also the humour of it.



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""No, you're not *all* FOX News viewers, but FOX ratings ARE very high""

"Yeah because it's good TV! I hate Bill O'Reilly, but I love the way he says "shut up!" to his quests - you do the math there. Love 24 too..."

If you think O'Reilly's censorship, misinformation and rudeness are good TV, then yes, I did the "maths". Not sure why you feel that to support the US you need to abandon your mother tongue. I guess you are heavily influenced by US media. You certainly seem to reason like a FOX news devotee.

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"You (as a nation) hold up the American Constitution like it was the tablet handed to Moses by God. I'm not saying it is without merit"

"What's wrong with that? And "not without merit"!?"

What's wrong with that? I would have thought it was obvious. It is not sacrosanct, and shouldn't be portrayed as such. It's fallible. It has already undergone many amendments, and will no doubt do so in the future. It's not an eternally true pronouncement of some deity.

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"I'm sorry but it sounds like you have already decided that you dislike America before anykind of objective analysis, which prompts you to grudgingly say things like "I'm not saying it is without merit" when referring the American Constitution."

Where was your evidence for this conclusion? It's sheer supposition, and you are incorrect.

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"It is the best blueprint for a country, anywhere on earth, in the history of civilization. Without any doubt. Ask any lawyer, or someone who knows something about law - and they'll confirm as much.
And all you can say is : "not saying it is without merit"?
how does that look to you?"

You certainly have a talent for hyperbole. I said it has merit. That's what not being without merit means. Well constitutional lawyers debate the pros and cons of America's and other's constitutions. To suggest that the matter is black and white as you do is rather naive. This is a massive topic. If you want to discuss that, open a new thread.

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""you are obsessed with the separation of church and state""

"And so they should be. So should you, you are from Australia right? Secular Democracy is the greatest social invention in the history of mankind. And if we didn't obsess to protect it we'd all be paying taxes to the Church for no reason, starting holy wars, and punishing/killing anyone who didn't believe - all state sanctioned.
You want a caliphate like Bin-Laden or what?"

There are lots of freedoms and rights that I think are important to protect, but I don't see the need to obsess over them. We have the separation of church and state in Australia, but we don't feel any need to obsess over it or even debate it generally... The issue has long since been debated and decided and accepted here. Things must be very unstable in the states if they feel the need to endlessly debate this particular issue.

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"you have by far the most deaths by guns in the world"

"Yeah we've never seen those stats before. Real news for me personally. Sure America has a hideous problem with gun-crime, that won't get addressed because of powerful lobbyists....and?"

Oh, is it powerful lobbyists that rule in the states? Is this the ideal democracy you are defending? Well, it's your precious constitution that is the lobbyists' main platform for keeping America armed to the hilt, and therefore killing its own population in huge numbers. The incidence of gunshot deaths in America is nearly 34 times higher than in your England. Is this one of the benefits of their ideal constitution?

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"Should we switch the talk around to the way Australia treats it's Aboriginal population? I wonder what the average Aboriginie's opinion of Australia is? Maybe we could draw up some stats on that...."

I have no problem with that, only not in this thread. What's your point? Im not defensive about my country. It's certain Americans here whom I say are unnecessarily defensive about their country. Anyway, I don't see how you are trying to contribute to a better understanding of things by these remarks.


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"No nation is without problems - everyone comes up with that gem of observation, but what no-one wants to admit is America *does* have the best ideology. It does. If you disagree that's fine, but trying to paint Australia's foundation, the UK's foundation, the EU's constitution, etc as actually better or more righteous in principle than the US is just flat out wrong."

What's the evidence that their 'ideology' is the best? I must have missed that. What would you claim makes America much better than New Zealand or Canada? I don't see it. I would rather live in either of those countries over the US. It sounds as though you are easily convinced by a little propaganda.

More righteous? You really have been influenced by the states, haven't you? What on earth would make the American constitution more morally right or justifiable? The constitution that used to deny the vote to women and African Americans and which supported slavery? That constitution?

And what on earth is your beef about the Australian constitution? Do you actually know it? Is that what you mean by "Australia's foundation"? We have a constitution. It's not perfect, and neither is the US's, but I don't think we are in any mortal danger from our constitution. I've been involved with discussions about our constitution. It could be improved, but I'm pretty happy with it. What do you see as its flaws? Are there any major concerns you have with the Australian constitution? Why is the American constitution superior to ours?

This would be off topic, of course, but I would love to know what you saw as the perils of Australia's constitution.

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"Yeah yeah yeah we know "but America says this and does this..." etc. Grow up man, that sounds like an argument a 10 year old would come up with quite frankly."

Sorry, I have no idea what in my comments gives rise to these remarks.

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"Further, to snipe America for it's foreign policy but at the same time take cheap shots at the domestic gun problem is coarse and uneducated to say the least."

Sorry again, I cannot fathom your logic here. Why would my comments about either America's foreign or domestic issues be characterised as "cheap shots" and "uneducated"?

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"If you see the two as being indelibly linked then, you don't know as much as you think you do about politics.

I'm no expert, but I'm more than pretty sure that the NRA doesn't get a say in what the US's strategy overseas for the next 10 years is going to be...."

I have no idea what you are trying to say. I was not trying to link these things or to comment on foreign or domestic issues per se. I was talking about the American's perception of themselves and how they are seen by others. This involves all of America, domestically and internationally.

As for the NRA and foreign policy, I don't know what planet you live in mate, but just for starters, under Bush, the NRA has been a full member of US official delegations to UN conferences on small arms trafficking. The NRA and the gun manufacturers have successfully moulded US foreign policy so that the US has thwarted efforts to ban the sale and use of small arms, even in conflict zones around the world. This has led, amongst other things, to the dumping of weapons in African countries escalating fighting and chaos there.


---
"they are trying to "preach" America"

"Sure they might be. Don't you think you are preaching in your posts?"

No, I don't. I'm not trying to get Americans to see themselves and the world through Australian eyes. I am trying to get them to look at themselves through American eyes, but with the lens covers removed, so they actually see what's there.

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""it is a beacon to the world and the one and only hope of future world peace and prosperity""

"Well I think people get angry about that because deep down they want to believe it...."

Perhaps you're right. I think many in the world turn to America for help and for protection. That is a good thing. And as I said before, I think that the US is generally a good world citizen. But they make some huge errors, as well.

---

"I've never, once in my life, ever heard an American citizen tell me that. I haven't seen any of the Americans on here "preaching" it. So where do you get it from?
Movies and Politicians.
If you believe either it says more about you than it does American citizens."

If you haven't heard it, it can't be true? You don't think the US sees itself as the world's policeman? You don't think the US sees itself as the ONE AND ONLY superpower, and therefore the biggest single contributor to world stability, world peace, promotion of human rights, and the worldwide balance of power, etc.(the one and only hope of future world peace and prosperity)? You don't think the US puts itself forward as the ideal democracy for the rest of the world to model itself on (a beacon to the world)?

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"Well, チャン I didn't want to pick on you, but like りかぴょん said this whole thing is a bit tiresome and more than a little cringeworthy..."

Well, you did pick on me. But that's neither here nor there as far as I am concerned. I'm not in the slightest intimidated by you, if that was your aim in "picking on me".

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"Don't be so quick to present your judgements of other people or nations - especially if you can't be objective, as factual or true."

There is nothing "quick" about my judgements. I don't see that you have demonstrated that I was not factual or true in what I have said. I don't really claim to be objective. I am partisan, but I have declared that. It's no secret. I don't feel in any way hostile towards Americans. I may not agree with many of them, but that doesn't mean I don't like them nor that I reject them. I just think that too many of them can be a pain sometimes.

When it comes to facts, as far as I can see you have made two factual statements in your post.
1. "It was Oppenheimer who invented the atomic bomb."
2. "I'm British by the way."

Were there other statements of fact, as opposed to opinion, that I missed? Both your facts were already known to me, and shed little light on the topic.


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"No, bashing America because FOX gets good numbers and you buy so easily into Politicians spiel, and quoting some gun mortalities here and there, then at the end saying "The US is on the whole a good country and a responsible world citizen" isn't being objective. Although you might think it."


You are on about politicians again! Where did you get that from? They are the last people I find credible and the last people I listen to to inform my opinions.

Yes, I think bashing America because FOX gets good ratings is perfectly fine. If that style of misinformation, propaganda and bias is what Americans find alluring, then yes, I think that is a discredit to them. It's run by an Australian, but there is no way he could get away with a TV channel like that in his native country. The Australian public just would not put up with it. Ah, but he's an American now, and America is welcome to him.

If you think that pointing out that America's gun deaths are about 34 times greater than England's and 192 times greater than Japan's is simply "quoting some gun mortalities here and there,"
then fine, but I really didn't learn anything from your post, which is simply opinion, without any factual backing.

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"hope you understand."

I wish I knew what it was you were trying to elucidate.


---
"(I'm British by the way)"

You're entitled to an opinion, even if you are a Pom. :)

Oh well, here I go again. Another long one. I think I'll retire after this one, you'll all be pleased to hear.

> 130: ウィール

"..."FOX NEWS" which is a bunch of Liberal Bullshit..."

Liberal???? Is that a typo, or what on earth do you mean?

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"...I myself as a person, not as an American, see anything wrong with guns. I love guns, I own guns."

Well, if you see nothing wrong with a massively higher death toll to your fellow countrymen, almost solely because people like yourself are permitted to indulge in some fetish with guns, then there would be nothing wrong with it. But these are human lives, worth more than your "right" to a mere pastime enjoyment, in my opinion. That's the choice your country faces, and it consistently chooses citizens' enjoyment over citizens' lives. Don't be surprised or indignant if you get criticism for this from outside America.

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"I agree with everything #123 said.
I still have yet to see anyone try and Force feed the American way down anyones throat."

Really? Ask the Iraqis. Ask the Palestinians.


--
"I still ask, What's wrong with National Pride..?"


You're just not listening. Take a leaf from Judge Judy's book, put your listening ears on! It's not national pride that's the problem, it's a particular manifestation of it.

Nationalism became unhealthy and counterproductive for its own people in Germany and Japan prior to the last world war. It's not in and of itself a good thing. I am not suggesting your nation is similar to those two at that time in history. But I am suggesting that your particular brand of nationalism may have undesirable negative effects with serious repercussions. Go ask so many people in the Middle East why they HATE America.

Some Islamists have their own nationalism. It is to bring about a caliphate, a theocracy instead of a democracy. Is their nationalistic feeling bad while yours is good? If you can call their nationalism bad, why can't others call yours bad? Why MUST we have a view that your national pride is innately good? You may have that view, but why should you expect that we ought to agree with you on this? Why are you unwilling to investigate whether there are any negative impacts from national pride as you know it?

I personally don't think that your nationalism is good because it alienates others outside your country, and because in my experience it seems to fill your people with so much pride that they assume their values are superior to other people's and as a result many of you seem to gain little insight into other people's ethos. That's my experience of talking to people like you.

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"And 115: チャン some of the things you said makes sense. But I do wonder, were do you base your opinions? Off of stuff you read? Statistics are just statistics. It doesn't mean anything. It only reflects the views of a Majority of people. But not the American people as a whole. Unless your walking door to door asking people questions..."

You will need to explain what on earth you mean by it is the views of the "majority of Americans" not the "American people as a whole". You are suggesting that the views of the American people as a whole is not formed by the majority of Americans? Then what, it is formed by an elite minority of Americans?

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"I am still young, I don't fully understand the Mechanics of everything. So i can't put up a great conversation. But i dislike when people try and picture American's as one thing."

That's a perfectly reasonable and understandable reaction, though mistaken in my view. I can't speak for others, but it is never my intention to picture Americans as one thing. What I am trying to get across is that America projects an image out into the world. There isn't just one image of America, but there are general perceptions that grow up over time and that large groups of people outside America share as their perception of the US.

The president of the US is one of the most powerful image makers for the states. When he is raised, so many of you are quick to jump in and say that you didn't vote for him, and that he does not represent America as far as you are concerned. Some point out that there were even more individual votes for Gore than for Bush in that infamous election.

The message seems to be, we're not responsible for our president. Well, who is? If not the American people, all of you collectively, then who? You can't "preach" your brand of democracy to the world at large (as you do when you go into Iraq and say that the whole Middle East will be a better place when you introduce democracy there), and then deny you are responsible for the election of your own president.

Look, really, you are just so busy telling the world that the president doesn't represent America (though he is your figurehead head of state), that FOX News doesn't represent America (though it's so high rating with American viewers), that the media publicity machinery of the states does not represent America (though you let it project these images all over the world to saturation point), that America's foreign policy does not represent America (though that is how you make contact with and interact with the rest of the world), and now you are telling me that the views of the majority of Americans do not represent America.

Patriotism is used in America today to stifle debate and opposition. You get labelled "anti-American" if you are dissenting about the war in Iraq. I would have thought the dissenters would be the heroes of the home of the brave and the land of the free. Surely that is what America is all about, the freedom to have differing opinions. But that is not how things are playing out in the states at the moment. There is no prestige in being a Michael Moore in the states.

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"With out even speaking to the Majority of people.
TV and Newspaper's are just pure Publicity. It doesn't show nor express the views of everyone."

It's not about getting the views of "everyone". That's clearly impossible. How do I get my view of Americans? Well, I get it over time, slowly building a complex picture. Yes, I use statistics, reading material, television, movies, internet, personal encounters, travel, you, and every source possible. None of these reflect an unbiased view. That is why you have to take them as a whole.

Whether it be internet or television or news or whatever, I listen to views from the left, from the right, from the radical, from the conservative, from the religious, from the secular... from every source possible. I have watched a good deal of FOX News television in order to form an opinion on it. I was not quick to judge, but over time it became quite evident to me how that network manufactured its form of propaganda.

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The following are the points that I believe you were trying to get across in your post. If you look at them, I think you will find that you are defending what you see as the American way. There is no reference to, let alone acknowledgement of any other views of America but yours.

You may be an expert on your own views on yourself. I won't challenge that. But have you ever thought about others' perceptions of you as an American? What you write seems to indicate to me that you are not receptive to that information.

You ask me where I get my views of Americans. Well, I get them from Americans. You are one. Here is what I get from you. To an outsider like me, the following is your view, an American view, that you are projecting out into the world:

- defending the principle of the unquestionable righteousness of Marines having pride in being Marines. (being defensive)

- (sorry, I honestly don't know what you are trying to say about FOX News)

- defending the inalienable right to bear arms being a great thing. (being defensive)

- asserting total agreement with the rambling sucking up to American "national pride" in post # 123 as though that is how we should all view America and Americans. (being defensive)

- declaring complete disbelief that anyone could feel that Americans were preaching their value systems as the best system for running a country to the rest of the world. You are asserting that America is not doing this. (being defensive)

- defence of American national pride, nationalism and patriotism, without addressing any of the critics' points, but just asserting it MUST be a good thing in and of itself. (being defensive)

- asserting that the views of the majority are not indicative of the views of most Americans but failing to explain which minority group does represent American thinking. (being confusing)

- complaining that you dislike Americans being stereotyped (though I wonder do you actively protest at the stereotyping of Muslims, African Americans, Mexicans or Iranians?) (being defensive)

- making the vapid judgement that TV and newspapers are just pure publicity (in a country where news is often presented as entertainment, it's not surprising, I guess, that you hold such a view). (being confusing again)

So, from your words I add to my impression of Americans. Above is my interpretations of these, your words:

Semper Fi is a term used by Marines in America. It has to do with Marines and their Pride for being Marines.. And the history of Marines.

...your actually talking about "FOX NEWS" which is a bunch of Liberal Bullshit (Pardon my French)

And the whole Gun thing is whole other argument... I myself as a person, not as an American, see anything wrong with guns. I love guns, I own guns.

I agree with everything #123 said.

I still have yet to see anyone try and Force feed the American way down anyones throat.

I still ask, What's wrong with National Pride..?

Statistics are just statistics. It doesn't mean anything. It only reflects the views of a Majority of people. But not the American people as a whole.

... i dislike when people try and picture American's as one thing.

TV and Newspaper's are just pure Publicity. It doesn't show nor express the views of everyone.

---
If you think I am mistaken in my interpretation of you and your nation, tell me where you think I am going wrong. I'll listen. Don't be defensive all the time, don't just dish out the same old rhetoric. My point is, have you guys "got your listening ears on"?

Wow man, you just wrote a novel!

I just want to add (if anyone listens) that if a world disaster happens, we (America) is EXPECTED to help. If we don't, we get criticized. If we do, we're heroes.

The world seems to forget that.

>133: DJ Stout
SUP DUDE. CAPSLOCK BROKE?

>130

Fox news, liberal!!! Are you crazy. Fox news is fiercely anti-liberal. All they do is tear into anything even remotely liberal. Fox is EXTREMELY conservative. It is by far the MOST biased news network around. The other nwes channels don't even compare to Fox news' right-wing, conservative bias.

135> MAY DEPEND ON MOBILE ACCESS.

131> hey there チャン

"I would have preferred if you wanted to argue facts"

OK, sure, you took a nice swipe at the "2 facts" I put up, lets do a fact count on your OP shall we?

・Some gun-crime figures
・ummm?

Not to be petty, but the 2 facts you picked out from my post beats your one doesn't it?
You might think of your opinions as being fact, so you feel your OP was jam-packed full of detail but it just looked like your personal opinion on a lot of issues to me. The number of times you said "I think" is kind of testament to that isn't it?
Is it? I don't know you tell me チャン
-----
"I don't particularly want to argue all this stuff with a POM"

Excellent start for someone who is banging on about Americans have to be self critical and fair...
(no, I know you were joking)
-----
"I simply think that the US in general and some of its citizens really encourage criticism from the rest of world by their attitudes"

That's just what you think yeh?
Do they really?
Isn't it just you dislike America in some way? I know I used to. And you didn't really answer ;

"Could it be because you think are better than Americans?"

you said ;

"I think I am better than which American / Americans? Than all Americans? Why would I even think about such a proposition?"

"which American?" - don't be sarcastic チャン....but
"Why would I even think about such a proposition?" isn't really a strong come back to the question is it? You could have just said a flat out "no". I know most people when challenged with something they don't believe tend to just come out with a flat out "no" rather than a morally idle question....Perhaps it really is a "no" for you チャン but reading your posts it just looks like someone who wants America to criticize itself just because they say so.

Yeah, you mentioned "Im not defensive about my country. It's certain Americans here whom I say are unnecessarily defensive about their country" - so what チャン?
You demand Americans criticize themselves just because you are prepared to do so....is that really a fair point of view?
Sounds a bit un-reasonable doesn't it. Frame it a different way, some people eat Nato, it's undoubtably good for you - do those people have the right to demand everyone eat Nato? Even if we don't want to?
Infact that example is biased toward you, as Nato *is* good for you - where's the crunching evidence that fervant cultural or political masochism is good for a Nation?
I'm fully prepared to believe that self-criticism is important, but I'm not prepared to demand it of people who don't want to do it. If they don't want to - que sera チャン.
No point acting like we are correct when those we are pointing the finger at are currently the most powerful Nation in the World. Not to mention, where do you get the idea that Americans don't criticize themselves?
If you want to talk American media, ever seen something like Scarborough Country on MSNBC? The programming on PBS? CBS? I watch them and a lot of self-examination goes on. And if you think in this day and age the media is going to give an un-biased version of the news then you are a very sweet person チャン. Do you think ABC (in Australia) is unbiased? Anyway back to self criticism....
No-one on here does it so you say, so you are going to extrapolate that result to 298,444,215 people? I think the number of Americans commenting on here and supposedly refusing to take any criticism is of the order of 10, the population figure is of the order of 100,000,000...ummm....is that what you term a "fact" or "truth" チャン?
You do the math
(sorry, couldn't resist)
---
"That's no laughing matter, and it was Oppenhiemer who invented the atomic bomb so....."

"The joke is not in reference to the bombing"

Glad to hear it too.

"You missed the point, and therefore also the humour of it"

Yeah sorry I must have, so too did a lot people perhaps. Do you want *me* to apologize for your lack of wit?
(that was a joke by the way)
No but you did say ;

"You sound a bit like a lonely voice in the wilderness, but I do get what you are driving at"

were you really being sarcastic towards ハービック's statement there, making a joke? Just reads like "I do get what you are driving at" to me. Sounds more like a voice of support than oppostion doesn't it? Nevermind jokes.
Please explain this cutting humour to me チャン.
----
"Not sure why you feel that to support the US you need to abandon your mother tongue"

Well god damn チャン! (there's another one for you). You are starting to sound mildly fascist now. I'm not allowed to pick and choose language? I must stick to my "mother tongue" must I? Come on, don't use long important sounding words then come with an amateur proposition like that.
I thought you said "I don't care if you are a supporter or detractor of the US"...it really does sound like you do care チャン. I enjoy the English language a lot, and don't see what's wrong with using phrases I like the sound of. I could talk in my mother tongue if you like - but I'm not sure why that would make any of what I say more poiniant to you? Would it? If it would then that's sad, and it means you might not be prepared to listen to somone who spoke in slang or if we radically extrapolate it, English as a second language (i.e not their mother tongue). I hope that isn't true チャン.
If it wouldn't matter to you, why are you telling me to talk in my mother tongue in the first place?
----
"You certainly seem to reason like a FOX news devotee"

Sure I know that my point of view on many things can look that way. It's the triumph of right wing conservativism and the shockingly bad failure of touchy feely liberalism that now anyone with a strong viewpoint, can be racked up in the mind as right-wing or conservative.
I'm not a conservative, and I'm not a "FOX news devotee" if that means someone who believes what they see on FOX News as being unbiased or unfiltered.
I like to watch Bill O'Reilly, for much the same reason as I used to like to watch Jerry Springer - it's sensational, tabloidy, filth, and yes that's entertaining.
I don't know チャン maybe your moral constitution is whiter than white and you never had a bad thought in your life, never watch violence on TV, don't enjoy seeing people who are supposed to be adults or "journalists" bickering like two drunk old ladies. But I enjoy that. So I watch it on FOX and laugh my ass off. And your assumption that "most" Americans don't do the same, or can't tell the different between real news and FOX news is very very patronizing toward Americans, and a blind generalization that, yes, you didn't supply any factual basis for.
So we have to believe that is just your opinion. And if so, I disagree with it, I think it's callous, and it reads like an opinion of someone who thinks they have more intellectual punch than "most Americans". Plus I've never met one of these "FOX news devotees" you keep presenting as the majority of America.
(plus if I never watched O'Reilly I'd never have seen Michael Moore rip him to shreds at the Republican convention show. That was worth a million dollars! - more Americanisms for you there)
----
"You (as a nation) hold up the American Constitution like it was the tablet handed to Moses by God. I'm not saying it is without merit"

"It has already undergone many amendments"

Yeah because it's provisions for admendments is one of the great things about the American Constitution, and exactly why they hold it sacrosanct isn't it. What they are so protective of is the fact their Country's blueprint is based on freedoms no-one else on earth was afforded in any other Country at the time, and to this day in some cases too.
I don't know, it's kind of easy for me to do the math on why they are *so* proud of it, why is it so hard for you?
And it is just that - pride. Seeing that as preaching, elitism, or arrogance just says more about your cynicism toward the US more than anything else.
----
"I'm sorry but it sounds like you have already decided that you dislike America before anykind of objective analysis, which prompts you to grudgingly say things like "I'm not saying it is without merit" when referring the American Constitution."

"Where was your evidence for this conclusion?"

Your opinions, presented in your posts チャン.
You demand : "I am trying to get them to look at themselves through American eyes, but with the lens covers removed, so they actually see what's there. "

That's kind of a thinly vailed bias チャン.
Which is fine. But how much of your request has been based on what *you* want and how much on what Americans actually want?
Ever heard of the word "perception"? You percieve America to be full of problems, and won't rest until everyone sees it your way.
"so they actually see what's there."
Perhaps you are the one who doesn't see the picture チャン? Ever entertained that thought. Seriously.
You assume America doesn't see problems that are apparent to you, and you are angry that Americans don't do anything about it.
The way you decided to throw gun-crime into the mix was a good example. you demand they fix it don't you? It's the "you have to do this wether you like it or not because it's good for you" argument. "The good of the many outweighs that of the few" as Spock once said. Is that your poistion?
Fine if it is, but it means you are about reducing civil rights and freedoms rather than increasing them. The end point of that road is Totalitarianism.
America is (ideologically) about increasing civil rights and freedoms rather than reducing them - so banning guns is kind of anti-American in a way チャン.
Are you demanding Americans be anti-American?
I know you say you are just demanding America be more self-examinatory...but for whose satisfaction? and on whose moral code? Reading your posts, sounds like yours. Doesn't it?
-----
"That's what not being without merit means"

no come on, you said

"I'm not saying it is without merit"

What's the next logical word on the end of that phrase チャン? Could it be "but"? Even though you didn't say it, or perhaps didn't want to say it, that's the silent nuance that slips into everyone's head when they read the sentence...

"I'm not saying it is without merit, but...." etc

Feels like you don't think the American Constitution is " all that" (another one for you) doesn't it?
That's your opinion. I chipped in because I think it is pretty bloody good (back to the "mother tongue" there).
I like the American Constitution. I like the Bill of Rights, and in particular I like the first admendment ;

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Here's another quote from a fellow Brit ;

"Without free speech no search for truth is possible, without free speech no discovery of truth is useful, without free speech progress is checked and the nations no longer march forward toward the nobler life which the future holds for man. Better a thousandfold abuse of speech than a denial of free speech. The abuse dies in a day, but the denial slays the life of the people, and entombs the hope of the race"

-Charles Bradlaugh

here's your words again

"I'm not saying it is without merit"

Does that really sum up the American Constitution?
-----
"If you haven't heard it, it can't be true?"

Well that just sounds like something Rumsfeld would say...what was it again "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence" or something?

"You don't think the US sees itself as the world's policeman?"

No. I don't think the US sees itself as a "policeman" in anyway. That implies they are following a rule book, and are out to catch some "criminals".
I think the US sees itself as being the most powerful country on Earth, and also sees what it has to do to enpower that, and sees that this must shape it's foreign poilicy. Otherwise lose out to another Nation (who will do exactly the same things America used to do. They will).
This invites naive cries of "well what kind of freedom is that!!!!!" etc
Well チャン there's how we want the World to work, and then there's how the World actually works. Go and ask an American if they'd rather be the most loved Nation on Earth, or the most powerful Nation on Earth and there's your answer.
Actually do it the other way, take a Nation everyone loves - ermm, wow that's hard isn't it, but say S.Africa - and ask them if they'd rather be where they are now, or on top of the pack....which do you think they'd prefer?
You're trying to say that what America does is wrong and against what America "preaches" (only Politicians and Movies preach it though - you know Americans also have the ability to see through that too don't you?).
Sure it is. But you know, they also want to be number one too. There's no way I'll defend America's "number one at any cost" policy, but I can understand it. And I'll admit to myself I'd be happiest to see the UK as the most powerful Country in the World, so I'll reserve throwing mud on America for it's foreign policy because it's just a little tid-bit hypocritical.
And I don't like "holier than thou" people.
(*leaves himself wide open there*)
------
"I don't see that you have demonstrated that I was not factual or true in what I have said"

Yeah well we did a little fact count at the top there didn't we チャン? I didn't post on a factual standpoint, I thought it must be blaringly obvious my whole post was a serious of arguments aimed at you informed by my opinion.
My opinion is wide open for you to question, just as I think yours is to me. But to come at me saying I'm wrong because I didn't put any facts in my post doesn't really make sense.
OK then if you want me to demostrate you as being not factual or true, take a look at the following. Give some facts to support them if you can ;

・ statistical analysis of nationalism in various countries has nothing to do with the choice of the type of manifestation of that nationalism
・so many Americans are so up themselves
・so many of them are just ignorant of reality both in America and abroad
・Unfortunately, it's massive and pluralistic segments of the USA that seem to have a surfeit of ignorance coupled with arrogance
・Your nation is just neurotic about these things.
・because they are trying to "preach" America
・if you would just stop being so up yourselves and taking yourselves so seriously

etc

Isn't your "fact" just a few personal experiences, cherry picking what you want to see America as, and flagrant generalization, rather than the reality?
Who needs to have the "lens covers removed, so they actually see what's there. "?

Do you see where I got

"I'm sorry but it sounds like you have already decided that you dislike America before anykind of objective analysis"

from now?
and
Do you still say

"Where was your evidence for this conclusion?"
-----
"There are lots of freedoms and rights that I think are important to protect, but I don't see the need to obsess over them"

Yeah I think I have successfully read into your thinking on personal freedoms and civic liberty チャン c.f "you have to do it wether you like it or not" etc. And you decide what is "right".
-----
"Oh, is it powerful lobbyists that rule in the states? Is this the ideal democracy you are defending"

Don't think I said America was "ideal" チャン, I think I said they have the best (ideological) blueprint for a Nation ever, and before your, my, or anyone else's Country did.
And yes, I'm defending that (the principle, blueprint their country was built on) against America bashers.
I also said we all know every Nation has problems - that means domestic and international.
Also in this post I acknowledge what we dream should happen, and what actually happens are different.
So do I think it's wrong America is influenced by the lobbyists?
Sure I do チャン! I believe in freedom man.
But to throw mud on America for being influenced by lobbyists is a bit simple to say the least - you'd have to admit exactly the same thing is happening in your country and mine.
You might say, "ah but I stand up against that in *my* country" (you said you were anti-government right?)
Show me the evidence that Americans don't stand up either.
My point to you is, why do you assume they don't?
Because lobbyists still weild enormous power in the US?
Well I'm pretty sure lobbyists weild enormous power in our Country's too, so isn't it kind of easy for Americans to turn that right back around on you?


"The incidence of gunshot deaths in America is nearly 34 times higher than in your England. Is this one of the benefits of their ideal constitution?"

Well the short answer to that チャン is "yes".
But it isn't an "ideal" constitution, that's your word not mine.
And it's not a benefit, but a horrible consequence....
"Guns don't kill people...." チャン
-----
"I am partisan"

We know!
let me bring back one of your gems again

・so many Americans are so up themselves

Nothing wrong with having an opinion, a slant toward one side or the other チャン....but are comments like that really useful, "factual"?
------
"As for the NRA and foreign policy, I don't know what planet you live in mate, but just for starters, under Bush, the NRA has been a full member of US official delegations to UN conferences on small arms trafficking"

OK is that the sum total of US foreign policy チャン?
Selling M-16s to African conflict zones?
The fucking French have been doing that in North Africa for decades. Not to mention the UK.
Is that really the top priority for these Nations? Selling Africa weapons on credit?

The obvious crux and big picture of American foreign policy right now - that is so much more volumetric and important to the political big guns than some gun sales to a tin-pot dictator, or some ragtag freedom fighters (read diamond fighters) here and there...is the middle east チャン. And in particular Iran.
The US has a fate-binded interest in that area, that if they don't fix up in the next 5-10 years is going to topple them from the number one spot. (parapahrasing Richard Armitage there).
There're 2 clocks in America's foreign policy - the Iranian "nuclear clock", and the Iranian "regime change" clock.
The US is focusing all it's efforts on getting that "regime change" clock to run faster than the nuclear one.
Because if Ahmadinejad gets a nuke, we are all fucked チャン.
And I'm more than pretty sure that Bush administration isn't taking counsel from the NRA on the situation, what to do etc.
Although with the level of competence they have shown so far, who knows...

So no, チャン I don't accept the idea that the NRA shapes the big picture of US foreign policy. They are no more important than a bullish company like Boeing who demand the US government get them big engine contracts overseas.
If the NRA jumped in and said, "hey we have to start reducing our dependance on oil and make the change over to eco-fuels etc because more and more gun owners drive a Tesla" you are proposing the Government is going to cower and say "sure thing"?
-----
"I'm not in the slightest intimidated by you"

good to hear. Maybe you'll read my post here then.
---

Well チャン, I'm kind of tired now. Regarding all the Australian Constitution stuff - no, I'm not a Civics Professor so please educate me on why you are better than Americans Constitutionally. Thanks.
-----
OK last one ;

"but I really didn't learn anything from your post, which is simply opinion, without any factual backing"

Ouch. So what was yours then? You had one set of facts to back up a claim we all know is true anyway....

I'll admit the rampant hypocracy of everyone taking stabs at America whilst trying to sell themselves as balanced or rational etc got under my skin. So I decided to put finger to keyboard so to speak, and may have been a bit angry at the time but..."but I really didn't learn anything from your post" is kind of handbaggy isn't it.
Go to a research institute if you want to learn something - this is ENGLISH ONLY, land of the ego and home of the lamen being allowed to act like they are an expert.
And we love it for that...

So yeah I like the American Constitution and what America is about in principle, and I'm not an American.
How many non-Americans do you see on here defending America?
But my viewpoint is worthless?
I'm not allowed to post?

And just for the record I don't want to be an American, or blindly defend America.
---
"hope you understand."

"I wish I knew what it was you were trying to elucidate."

from someone who says things like ;

"if you would just stop being so up yourselves and taking yourselves so seriously"

that's a little sour for me チャン

Cheers mate
(does that suite your taste better?)

...

Learn to edit.

> 140: Thad

Any so-called Whites who think of the USA as a white country are deluded, aren't they?

The same goes for the UK, France, Germany, Australia, Canada, and many more.

My definition of an American is any US citizen or holder of a Permanent Resident Card (Green Card).

So race or ethnicity has nothing to do with it.

However, when looking at America as a whole, it is around 75% White and about 75% Christian.

Asians make up only somewhere around 3.5% of the population. But that makes them no less important as citizens, of course.

>> My definition of an American is any US citizen or
>> holder of a Permanent Resident Card (Green Card).

I wish the U.S. government would take that position, too. :)

Green card holders like myself are by definition not U.S. citizens; therefore, in my book, not Americans.

139> ouch

> 134: りかぴょん


I'm listening... You are right, the world does EXPECT America to help in any disaster or major conflict.

I disagree that if you do help, you are heroes. I think you are often not appreciated, even after helping recovery from natural disasters or famine, etc.

I don't think the world forgets that you do this help. I think some of the world objects to the American thinking/attitude that they see goes along with that help.

> 136: Wavebird-9 波鳥っ九

>"Fox news, liberal!!! Are you crazy. Fox news is fiercely anti-liberal... It is by far the MOST biased news network... right-wing, conservative..."

Thanks for explaining... I was just gob-smacked, couldn't answer him...

> 142: だいはど
>> My definition of an American is any US citizen or
>> holder of a Permanent Resident Card (Green Card).

> I wish the U.S. government would take that position, too. :)

> Green card holders like myself are by definition not U.S. citizens; therefore, in my book, not Americans.

Well, as I see it, if the US is your usual, permanent place of residence and work, etc. and where you bring up your children if you have them, then you are integrally part of America. You are a permanent and integral part of the US population, and therefore an American in my book. You help shape and represent that society, however the govt may choose to classify you.

Many may disagree with me. I was just giving my definition of an American. I am influenced by the fact that Permanent Residents in Australia are considered Australian - not a citizen unless they take up that option, but Australian definitely.

If you are a permanent resident of the US, it seems to me you are accepted on a different footing from a foreign / alien sojourner. Does the US label you an alien? Is your Green Card sufficient as your identity, or does the US govt always require it in conjunction with a current foreign id (such as a foreign passport)? If you live 50 years in the states on a Green Card, are you required to maintain foreign id status? If not, then I suggest that the American govt accepts you as American, just not a citizen. What Americans accept you as is another matter.

> 143: Thad

> America still has 75% White population of European-ancestry ( exclude Hispanics & Arabs),are you sure ?

Ah no. You raise a different issue. What is white? For the US govt statisticians white usually includes having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. So it includes Arabs and some Hispanics (unless they nominate another race - they are a mixed group).

I was really only drawing attention to the proportion of Asians.

> Recent ( 1990-present ) alarming drastic demographic changes pushed this percentage down to merely 65%-67% and continues to drop to possible 50% by 2025. In Calfornia, it's been official Whites only make up 40% of the state population.

I don't know why you characterise this as "alarming". I live in a country where 25% of the whole population of my country is born overseas. I'm not at all alarmed by that. On the contrary I really appreciate the rich diversity of our communities.

I think Australia may have more of a claim to the title of immigrant country than the US. :)

> 138: ...

Please wait, yours is coming.

I just need to verify I have enough bandwidth to upload my answer to you.

No, no, just joking... I just need to proof-read it... that shouldn't take more than 2 or 3 hours perhaps, I'm quite a fast reader.

Are you getting the picture?

チャン >>

Well, I guess I see what you're saying.

Maybe you aren't such a bad guy :P. LOL.

I am an American college student in Los Angeles. I was born in Hawaii and my mother and father are of mixed ethnicities. Hawaiian, Filipino and Japanese. Currently I am in a American History class as well as a Political Science class which studies workings of the American Government and Political System. I am also studying Japanese in order to understand my heritage.

http://img.waffleimages.com/49f7c630695646161c00a852d0568439e724ee72/Hitman104.jpg

Americans are people but what makes them special is they have a second chance at life which other older countries do not have.

Ironically the best quote which describes what Americans are was written by an Irish man in Europe, Garth Ennis.

"Hey, lemme tell you the problem with America, okay. This could be the greatest country on earth. It really could. You got all these different type of people comin’ here to get away from oppression an’ poverty. All lookin’ for a better life.

But what do they do? Hang on to the things that got them in trouble in the first place. They wanna go on fightin’ the same wars an’ hatin’ the same people they did in the old world.

They wannabe Italian or Greek or Irish or Polish or Russian or African or Cambodian or Vietnamese or whatever… So they hang on to alla’ that. They stick to their own kind and stay suspicious of everyone else an’ for what…?

Culture? History? What the hell is that. A bunch of stuff your folks said you hadda’ believe in all your life? Does that make it Real?

But you man, you showed ‘em how it’s done. You’re the classic immigrant guy who comes to the states an’ joins the meltin’pot. It’s like you’re sayin’ – Okay. I’m from planet Krypton or whatever but that’s all in the past. I’m startin’ over.

I’m American, what can I do to help?”

> 146: りかぴょん
> チャン >>

> Well, I guess I see what you're saying.

> Maybe you aren't such a bad guy :P. LOL.

Hahaha... So, some Americans have been reading what I've been writing! :P

We get some spirited exchanges about Americans, don't we?

Now if I had started a topic called "Who is an Australian?", probably no-one would have written anything. :D LOL

> 138: ... [PART ONE]

> 131> hey there チャン

hey there dot dot dot!

Well, looks like I'm still battling with a Brit over something he can't answer for. My issue is really with Americans and their perceptions, not with British perceptions of Americans' perceptions. So, I respectfully would like to dip out of any further tit for tat with you for that reason. (And because I need to get back to my other life.)

This will be my last post in this little series. So, there you go, dot dot dot, you can rag me as much as you like, bait me, claim the last triumphant word, and I won't refute it. You get the last word, if you want it.

-----
Glad that you accepted there were indeed two factual statements in your post. There is no point doing this exercise for my post, I didn't claim to be quoting facts. I am stating opinion. I don't resile from that. Yes, you are right, it is my personal opinion. That is all I meant it to be. Nothing more, nothing less.

The reason I picked out your 2 facts was because you said: "Don't be so quick to present your judgements of other people or nations - especially if you can't be objective, as factual or true."

I just decided to be cheeky and test you against your own criteria. What was "opinion" and what was "fact" in your post. As you agreed, you had two pieces of fact, and neither related directly to the issues under discussion. So, it's opinion versus opinion. Just so you don't imagine you are factual and objective while I am "opinionated".

You returned to this subject later in your post, but then said your post was meant to be opinion. That raises the question why you said I should not present my opinion if I can't be "objective, as factual [sic] or true." I just don't get it. You don't have to present facts, because you are expressing opinion, but what? Because you characterise my opinion as "judgements of other people", I have to present facts and be objective? Is this your argument? (Leave it as a rhetorical question, huh?)

-----
I did answer you about whether I thought I was better than Americans. I did not give a flat 'no' because the question makes no sense to me. If you say "all Americans", I can answer flat out. If you are asking me if I think I am better than ALL Americans, my answer is no, I don't. There have been some brilliant Americans. So?

If you insist on asking do I think myself "better than Americans", I have ask you to define "Americans". The American people as a whole? The average American? All American people? What I perceive as Americans? I honestly don't know how to interpret or answer such a question. That relates to the topic of this thread. To my knowledge, it has not yet been definitively answered: who / what is an American? So, how can I answer such a question.

You ask isn't it just that I dislike America in some way. You keep asking this sort of question. It's not really relevant to whether my perceptions are correct or not, and I don't know why you keep asking. I'll try to answer and satisfy your curiosity.

Do I dislike America "in some way", you ask. Sure, there are things about America I dislike. There are things about Australia I dislike. So?

Do I dislike America? No, I have no reason to dislike the US. I have relatives over there. There are so many amazing things in the states. Visiting there is great. I wouldn't want to live there, but for a short time for some specific reason even that would not be an ordeal, it would be interesting. Long term, no. But none of this is relevant to what I am saying in my posts, except that I choose not to live there, which I have mentioned a few times.

I have no idea what you mean when you characterise my response to your ambiguous question as "morally idle". Sounds intelligent though, whatever you meant! I guess it went over my head? (That was sarcasm, my dear boy. I simply point that out because you seem to have trouble distinguishing what is facetiousness, sarcasm, humour in general, statement of opinion, etc.)

You say I look like someone who "wants America to criticize itself just because they say so". Well, I wouldn't put it that way. Criticise is an emotionally loaded word the way you are using it here. I'm simply asking Americans to analyse their own attitudes. Whether they do it or not is up to them, so I don't know why you have your British knickers in a knot about it. It really has little to do with you.

---
> Yeah, you mentioned "Im not defensive about my country. It's certain Americans here whom I say are unnecessarily defensive about their country" - so what チャン?"

So that was my answer to you. My answer was that I am not defensive about my country when it comes to discussing controversial or sensitive issues. I am not defensive, I do not allow nationalism or patriotism to stop me being honestly critical of my own country… I would be happy to discuss the issues you raised about Australia, but not in this context. "...so what チャン?" you said. Well, you asked, I answered. That's what, dot dot dot!

---
Well, while your little story about 'nato' was amusing to read, it had nothing to do with anything that I said. The flaw in all your lengthy argument is your assumption that I "demand" Americans should "criticise" themselves.

All I have tried to do is to say that if Americans want to understand others' perceptions of them, including mine, they should do some analysis instead of beating the American-Pie drum, stop "preaching" and start "listening". If they don't want to do that, I don't really care because it has no real effect on me. I am trying to point out to them that it does have repercussions for them. I've said, I am not talking to all Americans, I am talking to the "preachers", as I call them, the ones who keep being "defensive" when criticised instead of listening and learning, and who keep spurting out the American clichés that we have all heard a million times before.

(Thank goodness there are some Americans who are sane and intelligent and with whom I can have really meaningful conversations.)

I don't care if they analyse their patriotism or not, I don't care if people eat 'nato' or not. So, I am demanding nothing, and your argument is therefore impertinent.

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> I'm fully prepared to believe that self-criticism is important, but I'm not prepared to demand it of people who don't want to do it. If they don't want to - que sera チャン.

Yes, I fully agree. That's always been my point of view. So, I guess you are misreading my post.

BTW, I think it's "que sera, sera, チャン" you mean, I think "que sera Chan" is quite another connotation.

---
> No point acting like we are correct when those we are pointing the finger at are currently the most powerful Nation in the World.

Sorry?

I really get gob-smacked occasionally on these sorts of forums.

You mean, since the USA is the most powerful nation in the world, we should not act as if we are correct? So, even if we think we are correct, we should not act like it, because America is so powerful? Interesting, if unpalatable point of view... I guess that finally explains to me why you support the Americans so vehemently. I think if you go with the "they are powerful; they must be right" philosophy, you embrace Saddam, Mao, Stalin, Idi Amin, and in your case, I guess Bush and Blair.

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> Not to mention, where do you get the idea that Americans don't criticize themselves?"

Huh? Where did you get the idea that I had that idea? If you think you are summarising my views, then once again you are wrong.

---
You went on to talk about good programs in the American media.
I didn't want to talk American media per se. So no comment, other than that there's good and bad, and I was talking about the pits. Thanks for the "you are a very sweet person チャン" remark. I felt encouraged and uplifted by it. And I love the ABC (in Australia) - the govt hates them.

Where or how I form my opinion about Americans has been raised a few times. No, I do not base my view of Americans on what is said here. My view has been formed over many years and informed by countless sources. Some aspects of America have changed over that time. Some aspects of my views have changed also. What is said here by Americans is a minute extra piece of my knowledge about Americans, but taken with analysis as to the source, and with a pinch of salt. I do my "maths".

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Hmm... I see that humour is no laughing matter with you, dot dot dot. So, I should try to explain a little, even though explaining humour is really the pits.

Let's just skip over the "Do you want *me* to apologize for your lack of wit?", etc. I have a feeling you may have been trying to inject some humour or wit there yourself, but well, I think you'll have to give us a clue with some smileys or something if you're trying that.

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>> "You sound a bit like a lonely voice in the wilderness, but I do get what you are driving at"

> were you really being sarcastic towards ハービック's statement there, making a joke? Just reads like "I do get what you are driving at" to me. Sounds more like a voice of support than oppostion doesn't it? Nevermind jokes.
Please explain this cutting humour to me チャン.

Eh? What cutting humour? It WAS a voice of support.

I think you need a funny bone transplant ASAP. You're not picking up where the humour begins and ends.

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>> "Not sure why you feel that to support the US you need to abandon your mother tongue"

> Well god damn チャン! (there's another one for you). You are starting to sound mildly fascist now.

Sorry, dot dot dot, the word is *facetious*, not fascist. I was being facetious, my dear boy.

> 138: ... [PART TWO]

> I thought you said "I don't care if you are a supporter or detractor of the US"...it really does sound like you do care チャン.

No, I don't care. What on earth makes you still think I do?

You went on to admonish me not to use "long important sounding words then come with an amateur proposition like that". What amateur proposition you say I came up with is unclear to me.

You go off on a wild tangent after that about why must you stick to your mother tongue, that you enjoy the English language a lot, you don't see what's wrong with using phrases you like, then asking if speaking the British dialect would make what you say more poignant to me, that I might not be prepared to listen to somone who spoke in slang or English as a second language, and finally you ask "why are you telling me to talk in my mother tongue in the first place"?

All of that because I quipped that you abandoned your mother tongue??

It was facetiousness, my dear boy. Sarcasm. Not to be taken seriously.

Did you seriously think I meant that you were talking like an American and not a Brit? That you had abandoned your native dialect altogether? Did you seriously think that if I met you in the street I would think I was talking to an American? You must have thought something along these lines, because you took it all so seriously and worried so much, raising all the questions above in your mind. Oh, dear.

To put your troubled mind at rest… I don't care what type of English you use, dot dot dot. It has no impact on me whatsoever. I could express an opinion about your English, but I'm sure you don't seriously want me to give my analysis of your English as you write it here in your posts, do you? I suggest you don't. There is a limit to how much embarrassment you should expose yourself to. (More sarcasm! Just to let you in on the secret!)

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"You certainly seem to reason like a FOX news devotee"

> Sure I know that my point of view on many things can look that way. It's the triumph of right wing conservativism and the shockingly bad failure of touchy feely liberalism that now anyone with a strong viewpoint, can be racked up in the mind as right-wing or conservative.

Sometimes trying to sort out your logic is like looking at someone through bong smoke at a teenage party.

Perhaps YOU suffer the confusion you outline, but I don't. A "strong" viewpoint? I guess you mean if someone puts forward a viewpoint in an assertive manner. I know what you are driving at (no, that is not humour, that is support and understanding). But surely you don't mean that at a meeting of liberal minded people anyone who puts forward their view in an assertive manner is labelled right wing just because of that, and regardless of their viewpoint?

----
You then go on to discuss your television viewing proclivities. I am not at all sure why. You enjoy watching Bill O'Reilly, Jerry Springer, "sensational, tabloidy, filth", "adults or 'journalists' bickering like two drunk old ladies", and so forth. You preface all this with the observation that your moral constitution is not whiter than white as you propose mine may be. I think it better I don't comment on my moral constitution after that, or I may have you claiming that I think myself better than Brits.

To deal quickly with the more relevant issue you raise next. I am not speculating whether or not most Americans can discern between more objective and very biased news programs. And I don't see how I am being "callous" towards them. Look, John Stewart's program is on the *Comedy* channel, but O'Reilly and co. are on the FOX *News* channel. As such I do not think it is reasonable to let FOX News get away with deceptive journalism because of its entertainment value. It must be judged seriously as a news broadcaster. I have no idea how many Americans may be able or not able to discern the extreme bias of this channel. I simply think it is deplorable that a purported news channel with the slogan "fair and balanced," but which is misleading and dishonest, can be tolerated and so highly supported by the public. If these programs were on an entertainment channel, it would be different. But it's a newscaster without integrity.

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OK, now you return to the issue of the American Constitution. Yes, it is historically very significant. Yes, it was very good and important in its day, setting up some guarantees of freedoms and rights for certain groups of people (not including slaves, women, people without land). It was remarkable in its time, and certainly something for the Americans to be proud of. I have no problem with that, though you seem to think I do.

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> What they are so protective of is the fact their Country's blueprint is based on freedoms no-one else on earth was afforded in any other Country at the time, and to this day in some cases too.

You seem to undervalue your own and other countries and over-emphasise the USA.

I don't see the need to make such a big song and dance about the American Constitution. I think that is to buy into one type of American patriotism and its hype. I accept it as a significant document, even internationally, but it is only one of many. Much of the first eight amendments to the US Constitution was to bring it more in line with the English Bill of Rights, which was the inspiration for the American Bill of Rights in the first place. Why don't you extol that along with the evolution of the Magna Carta from the 13th century onwards, which was truly extraordinary in its day, and which influenced the US Constitution and Bill of Rights.

My problem is not with the American Constitution, but with a certain type of American patriotism that boastfully trots out a long list of clichés to suggest that America is God's gift to the world, that America is the Be All and End All, greatest nation on earth, and it represents The Ideal, the model for the rest of the world to follow unquestionably. This is not because I am jealous of America. I am perfectly happy to be Australian rather than American (no offence meant to Americans), so why would I be jealous?

It is quite common to hear in Australia people say "we don't want to become like America" in relation to one issue or another. It is not that America is not liked in Australia. It's simply that we like our country to be Australian. We are not like America. We don't want to become like America. We have a lot in common with America, but we want to model our society on Australian values, not American values. They are different.

Other countries are the same. Middle Eastern countries are very unlikely to model any democratic system they may develop on American values. Democracy in Japan, Singapore or Malaysia is not the same sort of dynamic as that of America, Australia or Britain. You understand, I am talking about how values influence the social structure. These countries may model their democratic system on that of Washington or Westminster (or in Japan's case on Germany and Westminster), but the values they bring to it, radically change how that system functions.

These cultural differences are not apparent, I believe, to those Americans who are full of that kind of patriotism that extols their values as if they are universal. Some of the principles inherent in the American way are universal, but not the American way, not American values.

Bill O'Reilly is, in my opinion, the epitome of the brash self-righteous American bully that is just how many people, especially in the Middle East and some parts of Asia, see Americans. And there it is, often the highest rating show, paraded on cable television for the world to see. The face of America for many. Americans appear to tacitly agree to this image of themselves by their support of that "news" channel and its profuse exhibition and extolling of American patriotism.

It was even the American armed forces, the govt forces, that took FOX News into the invasion of Iraq in the front seat of the vanguard of military vehicles. FOX News was the face of the American military's public relations at that time. It speaks volumes to the world. For some, FOX News is America.

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> Perhaps you are the one who doesn't see the picture チャン? Ever entertained that thought. Seriously.
You assume America doesn't see problems that are apparent to you, and you are angry that Americans don't do anything about it.

I do not feel in the slightest angry with Americans (though I am occasionally with the president and govt policy). You seem intent on associating me with words like "demanding", "fascist", and "totalitarian", and now with being angry. I can only think that this goes back to your notion that anyone with a strong viewpoint, is to be "racked up in the mind as right-wing". I abhor fascism and totalitarianism. I'm an Aussie for God's sake, I love my freedom. And having worked a long time as a counsellor, the last thing I ever want to do is to demand that someone change. Even Americans!

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> The way you decided to throw gun-crime into the mix… [snip] means you are about reducing civil rights and freedoms rather than increasing them. The end point of that road is Totalitarianism.
> America is (ideologically) about increasing civil rights and freedoms rather than reducing them - so banning guns is kind of anti-American in a way チャン.

Yeah, dot dot dot, you buy all the false arguments of that psuedo-patriotism in the states - "banning guns is kind of anti-American". There are plenty of Americans who believe guns ought to be controlled much more than they are. These are not anti-Americans, but free American citizens exercising their right to freedom of speech and democratic processes.

Yours is just one point of view. What about the right of citizens to walk about in safety? Statistics show that this is impeded by the gun laws.

Many of our "rights" or liberties are limited in law. They are not all absolute. Even free speech has limitations in law - defamation, libel, slander, blasphemy, obscenity, and treason. The right to bear arms was part of Britain's Bill of Rights in 1689. However, Britain does not have America's current gun deaths problem. Perhaps this shows the superiority of the British constitutional system over the American one? (Just a dig at you, that would be an oversimplification of the broader picture and puerile.)

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> Are you demanding Americans be anti-American?
I know you say you are just demanding America be more self-examinatory...but for whose satisfaction? and on whose moral code? Reading your posts, sounds like yours. Doesn't it?

I guess that is your reading of my posts. If others feel the same, then perhaps I have expressed myself poorly. But I have tried to say that it is of no real consequence to me. I put forward my views in an attempt to say that if some Americans are wondering why they are not loved and appreciated in the wider world sometimes, they ought to do a little self examination with their defences down. Once again, I say to you, it does not matter to me whether they do this or not. Has it sunk in yet?

> 138: ... [PART THREE]

Rah, rah, rah! for your quote about free speech. But you don't need the American Constitution to have free speech, so what was the point? I feel very comfortable and confident of my right to free speech in Australia.

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> "If you haven't heard it, it can't be true?"

> Well that just sounds like something Rumsfeld would say...what was it again "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence" or something?

I'd be happier if you were quoting Rumpole rather than Rumsfeld. That would be much more interesting.

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> "You don't think the US sees itself as the world's policeman?"

> No. I don't think the US sees itself as a "policeman" in anyway. That implies they are following a rule book, and are out to catch some "criminals".

I think your imagery of a policeman is a little different. The issue of the USA and the concept of being a world policeman is one of "keeping the peace". This is a well-known debate. Just do a Google for "USA world policeman" - I just got two and a half million hits for that.

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> My opinion is wide open for you to question, just as I think yours is to me. But to come at me saying I'm wrong because I didn't put any facts in my post doesn't really make sense.

That's right, it doesn't make sense. At last you got my point! YOU were the one who challenged my post for being opinion and not "factual". I just threw it back at you. It was you, not me who went against what you say now and what I was trying to get across to you.

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>Do you see where I got
"I'm sorry but it sounds like you have already decided that you dislike America before anykind of objective analysis"
from now?
and
Do you still say
"Where was your evidence for this conclusion?"

Yes, I still say it, I stand by my words. Your assumption that I dislike America is incorrect. So, everything you say that flows from that assumption is without foundation.

I don't want to go and live in Antarctica, but I don't dislike Antarctica. I just prefer to live elsewhere. I have some major criticisms of Japan and of Australia, but it doesn't mean I dislike either place. I can see that you might suspect that I didn't like America, but to assume it is to risk being wrong. You are wrong.

And as far as objective analysis goes. You speak as though I should wait for answers here in this forum before making up my mind about America. Well, that is ridiculous. I have formed opinions about America over many years and with the benefit of a huge amount of data from so many sources. I am open to changing my mind, given persuasive argument or conclusive facts. But I am not forming my opinions based on what appears in this thread alone.

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>> "As for the NRA and foreign policy, I don't know what planet you live in mate, but just for starters, under Bush, the NRA has been a full member of US official delegations to UN conferences on small arms trafficking"

> [snip]... The obvious crux and big picture of American foreign policy right now - that is so much more volumetric and important to the political big guns than some gun sales to a tin-pot dictator, or some ragtag freedom fighters (read diamond fighters) here and there...is the middle east チャン. And in particular Iran... [snip]... So no, チャン I don't accept the idea that the NRA shapes the big picture of US foreign policy.

That wasn't my point. You did not think the NRA had any influence at all on US foreign policy. I gave you one example. What concerns me is the principle of a biased lobby group representing the govt and people of the United States and helping make pro-gun decisions for other parts of the world. Surely that is the role of the US govt representatives, not private lobbyists from one side of the internal debate within America. Surely the American govt is giving a platform to a private lobby group to influence the world stage in a partisan way in the name of the American people. If this is how America conducts foreign policy, it has to be ready for criticism.

When you couple this with the fact that President Bush's dynasty has for generations had enormous private investment in armaments factories, that Bush commits the US to hugely costly (and for his family hugely profitable) war involvement in other countries… I simply ask the questions who's running the American foreign policy, what is their agenda, and why don't the American people debate this issue more? Those that do are stridently labelled by FOX News commentators as Anti-American and not "supporting our troops", etc. Large numbers of Americans watch these Fox pundits, but too few question their govt in this area in my opinion.

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> Well チャン, I'm kind of tired now. Regarding all the Australian Constitution stuff - no, I'm not a Civics Professor so please educate me on why you are better than Americans Constitutionally. Thanks.

I'm not claiming ours is better. That is the same pointless argument as whether I think I am better than Americans. Neither of these propositions are my point of view.

I would simply say that I believe our Australian Constitution delivers us as much, if not more freedom than Americans have. It works for us, the American system works for them. I certainly don't see the American constitution as a blueprint for other countries, but rather a necessary point of reference amongst others when drafting constitutions.

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>> "but I really didn't learn anything from your post, which is simply opinion, without any factual backing"

> Ouch. So what was yours then? You had one set of facts to back up a claim we all know is true anyway....

Well, sorry, I could have phrased that in a kinder way. What I am trying to say is that I was really wanting to draw out from certain Americans why they are so defensive about criticism, rather than being open to analysing what is good and bad in others' perceptions of America.

I can't do this with you, since you are not American. The best you could do for me is to change my ideas by presenting factual information that persuaded me to change my opinion on some specific issue. Any opinion you give me is worthless in my quest, because my quest is for Americans' view of themselves. Any opinion you give would have to be verified by Americans to be relevant to my aim. I am seeking Americans to respond to my opinion, not Brits, sorry.

It's not that your opinions are worthless. But they are worthless to my objective here. You and I have different views about America. I'm not particularly concerned with your views. What concerns me is the very large, very large indeed, body of negative opinion about the US in the Middle East and in parts of Asia. What concerns me is what I see as America's lack of sensitivity to these views, and apparent lack of understanding why these people feel the way they do. And I am concerned about the image projected from the states of a self-righteous "you are either with us or against us" attitude projected by President Bush and Bill O'Reilly and others.

If I was American, I would want my country's world image to be different from America's today. I'm just trying to find out from some of its citizens if the apparent lack of effort to change this image is through ignorance or belligerence.

----

I retire now. I won't be posting a reply to anything you may raise. The floor is all yours. You get to have the last word as far as your and my arguments are concerned. Thanks for your exchange, and for getting feisty, but not nasty. Much appreciated.

Apologies to those who detest long posts.

---
> Cheers mate
(does that suite your taste better?)

No worries, mate!

American is just a nationality as in..what country you were born in.
Many people are born in America and claim american citezenship but can have a different culture upbringing.

For example: I was born in America, but through my father I am first generation born in America. And with my mom, I'am 3rd generation born in America." I come from a west indian background"


its funny, many people outside of America just think I'am American and nothing else because I
was born here=(.

チャン> ahh...チャン's taken the ball away and gone home (泣)

Yeah nothing to mention really - other than to say *round of applause* for a long-ass trilogy of writing that never once addressed the fact you said ;

・ statistical analysis of nationalism in various countries has nothing to do with the choice of the type of manifestation of that nationalism
・so many Americans are so up themselves
・so many of them are just ignorant of reality both in America and abroad
・Unfortunately, it's massive and pluralistic segments of the USA that seem to have a surfeit of ignorance coupled with arrogance
・Your nation is just neurotic about these things.
・because they are trying to "preach" America
・if you would just stop being so up yourselves and taking yourselves so seriously


(my dear boy)
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((that kind of weirded me out チャン. Not that it really matters but.....you know....you *can* just talk in your normal voice on here, no-one is going to think your comments anymore worthy just because you use a 19th Century Crime Sleuth voice))