Some authors argue that "good English" is equivalent to the English spoken and written in Inner Circle nations.
Others argue that non-native English varieties are just as valid as native varieties. They suggest a non-native English speaker can be a "good English speaker" without imitating a native speaker's pronunciation or socio-pragmatic norms.
Others argue that non-native English varieties are just as valid as native varieties. They suggest a non-native English speaker can be a "good English speaker" without imitating a native speaker's pronunciation or socio-pragmatic norms.
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コメント(7)
I don't agree with the first, and I partly, not fully, agree
with the second.
Good English should be clear, concise, and easy to understand.
It should not include offensive, immodest, or arrogant
expressions.
Many non-native speakers can use "good English" while
some native speakers cannot.
The bottom line; we should be able to tell "Good English"
from others, whoever the speaker may be, and start from
imitating good ones.
with the second.
Good English should be clear, concise, and easy to understand.
It should not include offensive, immodest, or arrogant
expressions.
Many non-native speakers can use "good English" while
some native speakers cannot.
The bottom line; we should be able to tell "Good English"
from others, whoever the speaker may be, and start from
imitating good ones.
Good english requires good use of all four skills of the language: writing,speaking,listening and reading.This goes to all languages not only english. Sometimes people from non native english speaking countries know most grammar that for native english speakers is just an innate skill.Since my mother tongue is not english, I usually cannot explain much grammar since its an innate ability and use it without too much thinking.
What sometimes differentiates native from non native is the accent of english.Sometimes you can guess the nationality of the person if you have a good ear.An american speaking person is different than a Brit or Scottish for example.Even the choice of words between English and American is sometimes different.Movie vs film, rubber vs eraser,fries vs chips and football vs soccer are such examples.english english or american english? :P
What sometimes differentiates native from non native is the accent of english.Sometimes you can guess the nationality of the person if you have a good ear.An american speaking person is different than a Brit or Scottish for example.Even the choice of words between English and American is sometimes different.Movie vs film, rubber vs eraser,fries vs chips and football vs soccer are such examples.english english or american english? :P
Inner Circle is an interesting expression... I've heard of this expression for the first time. What scope does it cover? Most definitely US and England, probably Australia, and maybe New Zealand... anywhere else?
I'd support the latter notion.
Like it or not, English has established itself as a De Facto standard language in the international society. (Especially in the world of business) This means that many people, as many as the Inner Circle Native Speaker, or maybe even more are learning and using English as a SECOND language.(Anyone has statistics?)
When we learn English as such, if we seek perfection given the first notion, we would eventually need to be able to THINK like the Inner Circle Native Speakers, and to stay in the framework of their socio-pragmatic norms. This would make it very difficult for us to express our culturally specific thoughts our socio-pragmatic norm in English. We might even decide to give up on conveying such thoughts and norms, in the light of trying to be as NATIVE as possible in our expressions.
For instance, if we wanted to tell some foreigner in Japan, that 「オフィスでは、きちんと挨拶をしなくてはなりません」, if we say to them, "You should be able to greet properly in the Office," this is rather a strange expression, probably deemed as a BAD English if were to follow the first notion. This is because that it is not a part of the Inner Circle culture to 「きちんと挨拶する」
I believe that we still need to make this point to the other English Speaking friends from other countries, however it may seem strange as a NATIVE English expression.
If English is to stay an internationally STANDARD language, it has to expand and modify itself to incorporate and adapt to the culture, philosophy, thought patterns, socio-pragmatic norms, or whatever, of the other 'Outer Circle' nations which uses the language as their SECOND standard language.
Forcing people to speak a NATIVE English in the narrow sense, and to effectively force them to think like Inner Circle native speakers, and not like they naturally do, is what I would call a Linguistic Imperialism. :-)
We don't have to speak English EXACTLY IN THE SAME WAY THE 'NATIVE SPEAKERS' do.
GOOD English, in my sense is the English that COULD CLEARLY BE UNDERSTOOD BY THEM.
Let's try to transform English, so that it could become a good vessel for conveying our Japanese (or any other culture's) mind as well :-)
I'd support the latter notion.
Like it or not, English has established itself as a De Facto standard language in the international society. (Especially in the world of business) This means that many people, as many as the Inner Circle Native Speaker, or maybe even more are learning and using English as a SECOND language.(Anyone has statistics?)
When we learn English as such, if we seek perfection given the first notion, we would eventually need to be able to THINK like the Inner Circle Native Speakers, and to stay in the framework of their socio-pragmatic norms. This would make it very difficult for us to express our culturally specific thoughts our socio-pragmatic norm in English. We might even decide to give up on conveying such thoughts and norms, in the light of trying to be as NATIVE as possible in our expressions.
For instance, if we wanted to tell some foreigner in Japan, that 「オフィスでは、きちんと挨拶をしなくてはなりません」, if we say to them, "You should be able to greet properly in the Office," this is rather a strange expression, probably deemed as a BAD English if were to follow the first notion. This is because that it is not a part of the Inner Circle culture to 「きちんと挨拶する」
I believe that we still need to make this point to the other English Speaking friends from other countries, however it may seem strange as a NATIVE English expression.
If English is to stay an internationally STANDARD language, it has to expand and modify itself to incorporate and adapt to the culture, philosophy, thought patterns, socio-pragmatic norms, or whatever, of the other 'Outer Circle' nations which uses the language as their SECOND standard language.
Forcing people to speak a NATIVE English in the narrow sense, and to effectively force them to think like Inner Circle native speakers, and not like they naturally do, is what I would call a Linguistic Imperialism. :-)
We don't have to speak English EXACTLY IN THE SAME WAY THE 'NATIVE SPEAKERS' do.
GOOD English, in my sense is the English that COULD CLEARLY BE UNDERSTOOD BY THEM.
Let's try to transform English, so that it could become a good vessel for conveying our Japanese (or any other culture's) mind as well :-)
i think that that the word 'good' has to be defined solidly in order to answer this question, since right now, the word is ambiguous (or maybe this is in an attempt to define it ourselves?)
imo, what マルタの鬼 has said makes sense, in that its innate for native speakers, while they cannot explain grammar. and also because good english in my mind has to do with all the aspects, not just written english (which japanese education places an emphasis on). but foreigners are perfectly capable of speaking english and sound exactly like the american does. if i speak on the phone, ppl cant tell that im asian or even japanese for that matter even though english is my second language.
but i am curious... these 'authors' you speak of, are they from 'the inner circle' so to speak? i have never heard of that expression but i understand which nations are implied. but this expression in itself may not be good english because its not clearly understood... interesting topic.
imo, what マルタの鬼 has said makes sense, in that its innate for native speakers, while they cannot explain grammar. and also because good english in my mind has to do with all the aspects, not just written english (which japanese education places an emphasis on). but foreigners are perfectly capable of speaking english and sound exactly like the american does. if i speak on the phone, ppl cant tell that im asian or even japanese for that matter even though english is my second language.
but i am curious... these 'authors' you speak of, are they from 'the inner circle' so to speak? i have never heard of that expression but i understand which nations are implied. but this expression in itself may not be good english because its not clearly understood... interesting topic.
I feel the same as Mr.Globe.
When I complain about my thick accent I can’t fix, my American friends kindly say to me, “that’s your charm”. And it flips me to refreshing perspective to the language of this country. Yet it doesn’t mean non-native speakers can speak unclear and be arrogant to show off our mother tongue. Good English should be carefully studied and it could be a lifelong homework to non-native speakers and in my opinion imitating or tracing conversation can improve language skills to good English. Maybe it applies to native speakers as well.
When I complain about my thick accent I can’t fix, my American friends kindly say to me, “that’s your charm”. And it flips me to refreshing perspective to the language of this country. Yet it doesn’t mean non-native speakers can speak unclear and be arrogant to show off our mother tongue. Good English should be carefully studied and it could be a lifelong homework to non-native speakers and in my opinion imitating or tracing conversation can improve language skills to good English. Maybe it applies to native speakers as well.
Like Globe-san and many others, I agree with the second.
In the US or UK, even beggers, robbers or thugs DO speak English. Then, does it mean they speak "good English"?
Not necessarily.
(I can easily guess there are a bunch of 4-letter words in their English...)
I am therfore skeptical about the first argument. Meanwhile, even non-native speakers who were born in non-Inner-Circle countries can have a very good command of English if they wish to do so.
I do NOT think "good English" is solely defined by native pronunciation and norms only BUT by what is actually spoken or written.
Of course, at least your pronuncition and/or norms should be understood by other English speakers, no matter if they are native or not.
Oops, I've spent too much time here. Gotta go...
In the US or UK, even beggers, robbers or thugs DO speak English. Then, does it mean they speak "good English"?
Not necessarily.
(I can easily guess there are a bunch of 4-letter words in their English...)
I am therfore skeptical about the first argument. Meanwhile, even non-native speakers who were born in non-Inner-Circle countries can have a very good command of English if they wish to do so.
I do NOT think "good English" is solely defined by native pronunciation and norms only BUT by what is actually spoken or written.
Of course, at least your pronuncition and/or norms should be understood by other English speakers, no matter if they are native or not.
Oops, I've spent too much time here. Gotta go...
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