☆ENGLISH ONLY☆コミュのMastering English.

Just curious, how fluent are you in Japanese?

Having taught English before to both kids and adults, plus studying elementary education (teaching K-8) as a grad student, I'm inclined to agree with you. English is such a crazy mishmash of various linguistic influences, that it's difficult to rely on any sort consistency in rules of grammar and vocabulary. Learning English requires knowing a vast range of exceptions, odd rules, and a pretty confusing spelling system.

Of course, I think an important part to consider in Japanese people's difficulty with English is the wide differences between English and Japanese. English grammar is considerably different than Japanese (Subject-verb-object vs Subject-object-verb) and English features a larger range of sounds than Japanese. English and Japanese use completely different writing systems as well.

On the otherhand, for many Europeans who speak Romance languages (French, Spanish, etc.) or speakers of German, they share an (almost) common alphabet, and various common vocabulary words... for them to learn English, the gulf is not as wide.

Now consider a different scenario... a native Japanese speaker trying to learn Mandarin Chinese versus a native English speaker trying to learn Mandarin Chinese. English and Chinese may share a similar basic grammar structure (SVO), but a native Japanese speaker has a huge advantage in terms of Kanji (many are the same, though Chinese meanings/pronounciation/method of writing may vary slightly) and in vocabulary.

Some examples:

安　[peace/tranquility] - an (Japanese) / an (Chinese)
愛　[love] - ai (Japanese) / ai (Chinese)
信　[believe/trust] - shin (Japanese) / xin (Chinese)
神　[spirit/god] - shin (Japanese) / shen (Chinese)
新　[new] - shin (Japanese) / xin (Chinese)
馬　[horse] - uma (Japanese) / ma (Chinese)
図書館　[library] - toshokan (Japanese) / tushuguan (Chinese)
不動心　[unmoved heart] - fudoshin (Japanese) / budongxin (Chinese)
上手　[good/skilled, lit. "high hand"] - jyozu (Japanese) vs. 高手　[good/skilled, lit. "high hand"] - gaosu (Chinese)
可愛 [cute/lovable] - kawaii (Japanese) / keai (kuh-ai) (Chinese)

An incredibly large amount of modern Japanese vocabulary correlates to Chinese.

In terms of learning the "tones" of Chinese, neither Japanese nor English shares that characteristic, so neither possesses an advantage in that area.

So yeah... difficulty is all relative. English, like any language, is definitely more difficult language for some speakers of other languages, but that difficulty is neither constant or uniform for everybody. Hard work at practicing and studying a language can overcome any "advantages" that a speaker of a different language might have...

I'm not an English master yet...but

In my opinion,

Reading and writing Japanese is harder than English!
And
Talking in English is harder than Japanese.

Reading and writing Japanese is hard because of KANJI.
But I think also を､に､の､へ､が…(I don't know how to say those...sorry)make Japanese language complicated.

Actually, KANJI is hard even for native speaker of Japanese.
KANJI is realy important for Japanese language, so we can't talk about Japanese languagewithout KANJI.
If KANJI is difficult , reading and writing Japanese is difficult.

Talking in English is harder, because of its accent, rhythm and pronunciation.
I think!

> But I think also を､に､の､へ､が…(I don't know how to
> say those...sorry)make Japanese language complicated.

"Particles"

I actually like particles, they're short and to the point ways of relating words together. A bit hard to get used to at first, but once familiar they are quite nice.

だいはど＞
no my japanese isn't very good, due to lack of motivation...
みなさん＞
I've heard it said that Chinese grammer is much closer to English (hearsay) so although there are alot more chinese characters to learn, I've heard it may be easier to learn that Japanese...
I think particles make the language easier, IF you can undertsand when and how to use them.
Otherwise they are complicated.
The reason I asked this question was because I meet far more English speakers fluent in Japanese, rather than the opposite.
I have some more things to say, but I've gott go now!

Pr0digalS0n →　Thanks for your share!!!

I meet far more English speakers fluent in Japanese, rather than the opposite.
→ Agree!!!!
Also, in my case, i meet far more Chinese speakers fluent in Japanese ratter than the opposite too!!

よしや〜☆ →
Ｉdont think Chinese is easier to learn than Japanese though I am a chinese....
But the Chinese grammar is definitely very easy to handle!!!

"There are some that can speak reasonably well, but I've yet to meet someone who has mastered English to a fluent level to understand more than 80%. "

I don't think most native speakers understand more than 80% of English!

Just visit MySpace once in a while if you want to depress yourself.

no i live in australia, but i've met quite a few with a very high japanese ability, some of which have spent time in japan and some of which haven't.
i think i can tell whether someone has a reasonably high abilty, considering their public speaking etc. and other japanese saying so.
Where do u live maverick?

Jeff → I'm not sure I understand what your're saying... are you inferring that we, being native speakers don't understand english?

"Jeff → I'm not sure I understand what your're saying... are you inferring that we, being native speakers don't understand english?"

Let me just say this:

You're supposedly a native speaker, yet your sentence above contains a word that means something completely the opposite of what you think it means along with one obvious grammatical mistake.

The point being there are quite a few native speakers that I don't consider particularly fluent. English is still difficult for native speakers, and we shouldn't have some sort of superiority complex because we've "mastered" a language that the rest of the world thinks of as so difficult. Most native speakers cannot claim any sort of mastery over English. I would think an 80% mastery of English (to use your example) would be a pretty lofty goal for most native speakers, not just those learning it as a second language.

Alright, I think I understand what your saying.
I would say that I am no expert on grammer and its usage, basicly I just use it, and yes sometimes make mistakes.
I guess what I meant by the 80% mark was comprehension skills and understanding what's being said and being able to respond to that.
I don't think anyone could every be a perfect speaker of any language.
I'm just interesting in what exactly makes English and Japanese learning difficult and whether or not its as hard as they claim to be.
I'm not sure if I make sense here...

>Jeff
"I don't think most native speakers understand more than 80% of English!

Just visit MySpace once in a while if you want to depress yourself."

Writing and reading are pretty different things.

It's quite nonsense to discuss how much precentage of understanding of a launguage a native speaker has.
I am a native Cantonese speaker, but I read english faster than Chinese.I do not know how much precentage of understand i have got in Chinese. But in fact, my french boyfriend(ex) used to teach me many Taiwanese slang.
Also, I am not a Native English speaker, but sometimes I teach Americans the British terms....and they teach me back the American slangs......

No one speaks perfect language....neither do the linguistists.............

The first thing that came to my mind was: how do you measure a percentage of fluency in a language?

So, what does "80% fluent" mean?

Also, I found this somewhat amusing...

"I've heard it said that Chinese grammer is much closer to English (hearsay) so although there are alot more chinese characters to learn, I've heard it may be easier to learn that Japanese..." (sic)

Chinese is an SVO language, like English and most other European languages. Chinese grammar is simpler than English and Japanese. But what makes up for that simple grammar is complexity in the writing system and tonal distinctions.

What is amusing to me about that statement (not to poke fun at it or anything), is that it seems like Japanese kanji are being differentiated from Chinese characters, as if there are "much fewer kanji" than "Chinese characters." Not so, for the word "kanji" means "Chinese character," and if you look at any kanji dictionary there are still thousands of them. Indeed, ancient Japanese writing was exclusively written in Chinese until kana was invented.

Any language is hard to master to the point where you are fluent in it, but I think the definition of a "fluent speaker" is such that the person can speak the language using mainstream constructs and vocabulary that sound like "natural" and like everyone else's. If you can be one with society and communicate with everyone, then that's pretty close to as fluent as you can get.

And to this: "No one speaks perfect language....neither do the linguistists............."

Someone sets the standards. A board of linguists probably set the rules for "standard English grammar" and are the "authority" on the matter. It's all about what we choose to conform to. So, then I ask: Is a dialect that evolves from a language suddenly not "perfect"? Since Mandarin is the standard language in China, does that mean Cantonese people can't speak perfect Chinese? No one is perfect, which leads to the notion that languages can't be "perfect" in the first place.