I've been wondering this for a while, and thought I might get some opinions on this matter.
When someone's language skills are described as "fluent", what does that really mean?
I am guessing that there is a distinction made between "native level" speakers and "fluent" speakers, at least going by the ability of people who are characterised (either by themselves or by others) as "fluent" speakers or some language or other.
If that is the case, where does one draw the line between "fluent" and the level below that?
When someone's language skills are described as "fluent", what does that really mean?
I am guessing that there is a distinction made between "native level" speakers and "fluent" speakers, at least going by the ability of people who are characterised (either by themselves or by others) as "fluent" speakers or some language or other.
If that is the case, where does one draw the line between "fluent" and the level below that?
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コメント(53)
I personally make a distinction between "native" and "fluent" speakers by whether they can pass themselves off as a native unseen, say in a phone conversation. Fluent but non-native speakers have distinctive pronunciational quirks which give them away.
I don't think understanding of advanced academic writing is any real indication, an English medical doctor (or a geordie brickie) will have less of an ability to comprehend a paper on non-thermal hard x-ray emissions from magnetic reconnection in the sun's lower atmosphere than a Japanese astrophysics PhD with a mediocre grasp of enlgish, IMO.
Standardised tests are at least a partial indicator, but given that some don't test oral skills, and for those that do, oral skills tests aren't too demanding, the hurdle is probably set too low. Especially, there are plenty of 英検1級 people who are far from fluent (at least as far as I am concerned).
Perhaps I am just a little frustrated at the way the word fluent is used rather too liberally. (My original post was triggered by some recent experiences with recruitment efforts, and the self-professed competency of candidates with respect to various languages)
I don't think understanding of advanced academic writing is any real indication, an English medical doctor (or a geordie brickie) will have less of an ability to comprehend a paper on non-thermal hard x-ray emissions from magnetic reconnection in the sun's lower atmosphere than a Japanese astrophysics PhD with a mediocre grasp of enlgish, IMO.
Standardised tests are at least a partial indicator, but given that some don't test oral skills, and for those that do, oral skills tests aren't too demanding, the hurdle is probably set too low. Especially, there are plenty of 英検1級 people who are far from fluent (at least as far as I am concerned).
Perhaps I am just a little frustrated at the way the word fluent is used rather too liberally. (My original post was triggered by some recent experiences with recruitment efforts, and the self-professed competency of candidates with respect to various languages)
Shinnosuke,
I guess I have had the opposite experience. In USA, too many people claim that a person cannot speak english JUST because they have a thick accent.
However, I also agree about the test skills in Japan. They have very low standards. In other countries, they ALSO begin learning at earlier ages, but their pronunciation is much better even though many people have never been to USA.
I also agree about comprehension of a thesis. I am sure no one could understand, whether native or non, unless they have studied that topic. However, asking questions in order to understand is one way in which a person can be considered fluent or not.
Another thing with english, there are different kinds. When people learn a language, they should expose themselves to other dialects. My Hubby sounds like a native American english speaker, but has no clue about British or Aussie english.
I guess I have had the opposite experience. In USA, too many people claim that a person cannot speak english JUST because they have a thick accent.
However, I also agree about the test skills in Japan. They have very low standards. In other countries, they ALSO begin learning at earlier ages, but their pronunciation is much better even though many people have never been to USA.
I also agree about comprehension of a thesis. I am sure no one could understand, whether native or non, unless they have studied that topic. However, asking questions in order to understand is one way in which a person can be considered fluent or not.
Another thing with english, there are different kinds. When people learn a language, they should expose themselves to other dialects. My Hubby sounds like a native American english speaker, but has no clue about British or Aussie english.
The thick accents I have come across in the US are usually spoken by recent immigrants (hispanic, asian, european, middle eastern, etc) and many of them do have problems with the technical aspects of the language, not just pronunciation.
I've found that even with native speakers, Americans seem to have more difficulty with non-American accents than the British, on the whole. Many Americans I have worked with have had a lot of difficulty comprehending Indians, Chinese and Singaporeans for example. Comparatively, in my experience, Brits have less trouble with these accents, amongst others.
That is kind of surprising given the variety of accents the Americans have to put up with within their own borders, but then again, I guess most have less exposure to overseas English, and this exposure issue affects native speakers as well as non-native speakers.
I've found that even with native speakers, Americans seem to have more difficulty with non-American accents than the British, on the whole. Many Americans I have worked with have had a lot of difficulty comprehending Indians, Chinese and Singaporeans for example. Comparatively, in my experience, Brits have less trouble with these accents, amongst others.
That is kind of surprising given the variety of accents the Americans have to put up with within their own borders, but then again, I guess most have less exposure to overseas English, and this exposure issue affects native speakers as well as non-native speakers.
しんのすけさん、
I also think it is surprising. I know I was deeply offended by my Aunt because she was talking about my in-laws and she said that my mother-in-law cannot speak english. However, my mother-in-law has been voluntarily studying for 10 years. She speaks really well, but has only been to USA once and for only a week. Therefore, when we can talk about many topics, but we both are patient. I know that she has never really had the opportunity to speak much. Also, she went to France and got by on English only. She may be only semi-fluent, but she can speak english.
My Aunt, however, can speak limited spanish, even though she has also voluntarily studied and she also has a heavy accent.
Too many Americans are intolerant. Also, in Japan, I have seen several Americans, including my Aunt, expecting that everyone know English.
I think Brits have less trouble because although both countries have pride, there is an American idea that we are right and others are usually wrong, unless they become assimilated.
I think other countries want assimilation, but USA doesn't understand non-assimilation.
I like USA and I am proud of my country, but there are things I notice about it that I do not like, of course...This happens to be one that I've been thinking about.
I also think it is surprising. I know I was deeply offended by my Aunt because she was talking about my in-laws and she said that my mother-in-law cannot speak english. However, my mother-in-law has been voluntarily studying for 10 years. She speaks really well, but has only been to USA once and for only a week. Therefore, when we can talk about many topics, but we both are patient. I know that she has never really had the opportunity to speak much. Also, she went to France and got by on English only. She may be only semi-fluent, but she can speak english.
My Aunt, however, can speak limited spanish, even though she has also voluntarily studied and she also has a heavy accent.
Too many Americans are intolerant. Also, in Japan, I have seen several Americans, including my Aunt, expecting that everyone know English.
I think Brits have less trouble because although both countries have pride, there is an American idea that we are right and others are usually wrong, unless they become assimilated.
I think other countries want assimilation, but USA doesn't understand non-assimilation.
I like USA and I am proud of my country, but there are things I notice about it that I do not like, of course...This happens to be one that I've been thinking about.
I wouldn't argue that the British accents vary widely, but the southern drawl and the Bostonian accents are to my ear as far apart as Cockney and Mancunian accents, for example. (granted the UK has a wider diversity when distances are factored in - and there is also probably a more pronounced difference in accent depending on social class even within the same geography)
I know a lot of non-native British people have immense difficulty with "non-standard" British regional accents, even native English speakers (from other English speaking nations).
I think it is also the case for various strong American regional accents as well (to which exposure is often limited).
It's always rather amusing (for want of a better word) when you find a foreigner speaking with an "interesting" accent. (ie from a place where you don't expect to find (based on a preconception - regardless of the reality of the situation) too many foreigners - such as the North East of England, or Alabama - both of which have a significant Japanese manufacturing presence and where a couple of friends picked up their English as teenagers having moved there due to their fathers' work, hence their accents, which does draw comments from time to time)
I know a lot of non-native British people have immense difficulty with "non-standard" British regional accents, even native English speakers (from other English speaking nations).
I think it is also the case for various strong American regional accents as well (to which exposure is often limited).
It's always rather amusing (for want of a better word) when you find a foreigner speaking with an "interesting" accent. (ie from a place where you don't expect to find (based on a preconception - regardless of the reality of the situation) too many foreigners - such as the North East of England, or Alabama - both of which have a significant Japanese manufacturing presence and where a couple of friends picked up their English as teenagers having moved there due to their fathers' work, hence their accents, which does draw comments from time to time)
True that! Being American, in the past I assumed that everyone from Japan was learning American english. Then, I heard some people speaking British English! I was really surprised. Also, sometimes my Hubby corrects my English because I'm from the South so I have a different accent then the "yankee" english he has learned. We always argue about the pronunciation of the word AUNT. hehehe It makes me crazy when he corrects me cause everyone I knew growing up said it the other way!
Being a native speaker means you sound like a native of said country with the accent that goes with it.
Someone who is fluent speaks the language but does not have a local accent.
After 11 years in the UK I guess I'm leaning towards becoming fluent but I will never sound like a native... thank god for that ^_=
Someone who is fluent speaks the language but does not have a local accent.
After 11 years in the UK I guess I'm leaning towards becoming fluent but I will never sound like a native... thank god for that ^_=
Being a native speaker means you sound like a native of said country with the accent that goes with it.
Someone who is fluent speaks the language but does not have a local accent.
Yes and no. There's a deeper meaning to native than that. Native implies that it's your original or first language you acquired. The language you naturally learned to think in from the earliest age. The language you're most likely to curse in when somebody calls your phone at 3am.
Fluent is basically about being at a level in a language when you can respond/speak without really thinking about it.
An interesting comment about Americans' inability to understand non-American accents of English. I've worked with several Americans and Canadians in Japan and Korea and I've constantly come across what I would term as a "resistance" to English that sounds different to theirs. So many times I've heard my North American colleagues make serious complaints about the "British English" in some text-books. I've lived in both England and New Zealand. People often make jokes about each others accents as a bit (not really in NZ because there aren't many different accents in NZ) for a bit of fun, but that's usually just it. For a light joke only. But I've worked along side some Americans and Canadians over the years who have had little tolerance for accents other than their own and seem to think that English teaching is more to do with a type of "conversion" where it's absolutely neccesary for the student to perfect a standard American accent than communication.
It's given me an interesting insight into the the psyches of native English speakers.
Someone who is fluent speaks the language but does not have a local accent.
Yes and no. There's a deeper meaning to native than that. Native implies that it's your original or first language you acquired. The language you naturally learned to think in from the earliest age. The language you're most likely to curse in when somebody calls your phone at 3am.
Fluent is basically about being at a level in a language when you can respond/speak without really thinking about it.
An interesting comment about Americans' inability to understand non-American accents of English. I've worked with several Americans and Canadians in Japan and Korea and I've constantly come across what I would term as a "resistance" to English that sounds different to theirs. So many times I've heard my North American colleagues make serious complaints about the "British English" in some text-books. I've lived in both England and New Zealand. People often make jokes about each others accents as a bit (not really in NZ because there aren't many different accents in NZ) for a bit of fun, but that's usually just it. For a light joke only. But I've worked along side some Americans and Canadians over the years who have had little tolerance for accents other than their own and seem to think that English teaching is more to do with a type of "conversion" where it's absolutely neccesary for the student to perfect a standard American accent than communication.
It's given me an interesting insight into the the psyches of native English speakers.
しんのすけ,
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Americans seem to have more difficulty with non-American accents than the British, on the whole. Many Americans I have worked with have had a lot of difficulty comprehending Indians, Chinese and Singaporeans for example.
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It may just be that Americans in general aren't used to non-American variants of English. Add to that the fact that American English per se is a lot more uniform than, say, BrE. I've been in the U.S. for 16 years. Although I've only lived in the Seattle area, I have little trouble understanding what they say whether I'm in Boston, New York, Houston, L.A. or Oklahoma City. Uniformity like that is probably unthinkable in the U.K. OTOH, it took me a few days to get used to the local English accent when I went to Singapore.
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Americans seem to have more difficulty with non-American accents than the British, on the whole. Many Americans I have worked with have had a lot of difficulty comprehending Indians, Chinese and Singaporeans for example.
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It may just be that Americans in general aren't used to non-American variants of English. Add to that the fact that American English per se is a lot more uniform than, say, BrE. I've been in the U.S. for 16 years. Although I've only lived in the Seattle area, I have little trouble understanding what they say whether I'm in Boston, New York, Houston, L.A. or Oklahoma City. Uniformity like that is probably unthinkable in the U.K. OTOH, it took me a few days to get used to the local English accent when I went to Singapore.
>puckman
"After 11 years in the UK I guess I'm leaning towards becoming fluent but I will never sound like a native... thank god for that ^_= "
I don't know about that, you could do worse, like picking up an american accent :-p
I guess it depends which accent you pick up....
One of the more interesting aspects of British accents is that there is a class dimension as well as a geographical dimension to accents, perhaps to a greater extent than is common elsewhere.
"After 11 years in the UK I guess I'm leaning towards becoming fluent but I will never sound like a native... thank god for that ^_= "
I don't know about that, you could do worse, like picking up an american accent :-p
I guess it depends which accent you pick up....
One of the more interesting aspects of British accents is that there is a class dimension as well as a geographical dimension to accents, perhaps to a greater extent than is common elsewhere.
: だいはど
I think it's true to some extent that in America and Canada accents don't vary a great deal, but in my country (New Zealand) there are hardly any different accents in the country. Most people I know in New Zealand really don't care about someone's accent. If a family emigrates to New Zealand and had to learn English, no one really cares if they speak English with a foreign accent. To some extent, it's almost expected that they will speak with their home country's accent.
I've experienced quite a different attitude from some of my N American colleagues though. Some expressed a kind of dissapointment with non-American English in the texts we used and one Canadian teacher I worked with recently told students that they MUST learn to pronounce English like her. She seemed to spend a large portion of her lesson time drilling students' pronunciation. As a result, several of our students left.
I think it's not just the uniformity of N American English that causes this anymosity towards other Englishes". I don't know exactly what causes it, but I've witnessed it on several occassions in my English teaching career.
I think it's true to some extent that in America and Canada accents don't vary a great deal, but in my country (New Zealand) there are hardly any different accents in the country. Most people I know in New Zealand really don't care about someone's accent. If a family emigrates to New Zealand and had to learn English, no one really cares if they speak English with a foreign accent. To some extent, it's almost expected that they will speak with their home country's accent.
I've experienced quite a different attitude from some of my N American colleagues though. Some expressed a kind of dissapointment with non-American English in the texts we used and one Canadian teacher I worked with recently told students that they MUST learn to pronounce English like her. She seemed to spend a large portion of her lesson time drilling students' pronunciation. As a result, several of our students left.
I think it's not just the uniformity of N American English that causes this anymosity towards other Englishes". I don't know exactly what causes it, but I've witnessed it on several occassions in my English teaching career.
"One of the more interesting aspects of British accents is that there is a class dimension as well as a geographical dimension to accents, perhaps to a greater extent than is common elsewhere."
That's true. I'm from Teesside but most people would be hard-pushed to work that out from my accent.
That's true. I'm from Teesside but most people would be hard-pushed to work that out from my accent.
Leeroy,
That's an interesting point. I've never thought of that. The only time I've had my English corrected in North America was at a hotel lobby in Quebec City, when I said "These guys come quick" (referring to the elevators) and the lady standing next to me immediately said "Quickly."
That does remind me of one thing, though. When I was in college here (in Seattle), a classmate uttered that she didn't realize that "we have an accent." If Americans in general share that mindset, it would sorta explain why they insist everyone learn their English.
That's an interesting point. I've never thought of that. The only time I've had my English corrected in North America was at a hotel lobby in Quebec City, when I said "These guys come quick" (referring to the elevators) and the lady standing next to me immediately said "Quickly."
That does remind me of one thing, though. When I was in college here (in Seattle), a classmate uttered that she didn't realize that "we have an accent." If Americans in general share that mindset, it would sorta explain why they insist everyone learn their English.
だいはど
That reminds me of teaching English in Korea a few years ago. In Korea the vast majority of English teachers are Canadian or American due to Korea's overwhelming requests for these nationalities only when it comes to hiring teachers. I once heard an American there explain this phenomenon in Korea because they said that "Koreans only wanted Nth American teachers because they wanted to learn English without an accent". I countered by explaning that there's no such thing as "English without an accent". We all have an accent. There's no two ways about it. Unfortunately most Korean students of English don't believe this making it hard for Brits, Aussies, Kiwis etc to get a good teaching job there.
The thing is when I've told people in Korea or Japan I'm from NZ they often say "Oh but I can understand your English so well" What were they expecting? A lot of people have this weird idea that Aussies and kiwis all speak like The crocodile Hunter Steve Irwin and say weird things like "To-die" instead of "Today".
That reminds me of teaching English in Korea a few years ago. In Korea the vast majority of English teachers are Canadian or American due to Korea's overwhelming requests for these nationalities only when it comes to hiring teachers. I once heard an American there explain this phenomenon in Korea because they said that "Koreans only wanted Nth American teachers because they wanted to learn English without an accent". I countered by explaning that there's no such thing as "English without an accent". We all have an accent. There's no two ways about it. Unfortunately most Korean students of English don't believe this making it hard for Brits, Aussies, Kiwis etc to get a good teaching job there.
The thing is when I've told people in Korea or Japan I'm from NZ they often say "Oh but I can understand your English so well" What were they expecting? A lot of people have this weird idea that Aussies and kiwis all speak like The crocodile Hunter Steve Irwin and say weird things like "To-die" instead of "Today".
The accent problem ALL COMES FROM HOLLYWOOD
Majority of the films pumping English into heads worldwide are American and read some scripts, youll often find that when they say a neutral accent, they are referring to something called the "California standard", haha of course because Hollywood is in you know, CALIFORNIA.
Also, the California accent is very flat and neutral....
Thats why all you brits and aussies get shit....not enough movies.
Majority of the films pumping English into heads worldwide are American and read some scripts, youll often find that when they say a neutral accent, they are referring to something called the "California standard", haha of course because Hollywood is in you know, CALIFORNIA.
Also, the California accent is very flat and neutral....
Thats why all you brits and aussies get shit....not enough movies.
This is an interesting topic... I guess I'll jump in with my 2 cents:
I think fluency exhibits a comfort-level with a language that is not your first language. When you're fluent in a language, it's implied that it's a learned language. A person who’s gained fluency can and usually does have a slight accent that isn’t considered a ‘normal’ accent for that language. For example, in English, there are many accents and dialects but there are only certain accents that are considered ‘native-speaking accents’. By ‘native-speaking accents’ I lump in ‘British English’ ‘North American English’ ‘Australian/New Zealand English’ … basically all of the countries that were former British colonies that adopted English as one of their main languages as a result. My mother-in-law, for example, is very proficient in English. I would consider her fluent. But she still speaks with an unmistakable Italian accent. This clearly marks her as a non-native English speaker.
People who have achieved the native language level are those who are able to lose their non-native accent and thus become ‘native speakers’. Their proficiency at the language is high enough to even fool other native language speakers into believing that they grew up speaking the acquired language as their first language.
I think fluency exhibits a comfort-level with a language that is not your first language. When you're fluent in a language, it's implied that it's a learned language. A person who’s gained fluency can and usually does have a slight accent that isn’t considered a ‘normal’ accent for that language. For example, in English, there are many accents and dialects but there are only certain accents that are considered ‘native-speaking accents’. By ‘native-speaking accents’ I lump in ‘British English’ ‘North American English’ ‘Australian/New Zealand English’ … basically all of the countries that were former British colonies that adopted English as one of their main languages as a result. My mother-in-law, for example, is very proficient in English. I would consider her fluent. But she still speaks with an unmistakable Italian accent. This clearly marks her as a non-native English speaker.
People who have achieved the native language level are those who are able to lose their non-native accent and thus become ‘native speakers’. Their proficiency at the language is high enough to even fool other native language speakers into believing that they grew up speaking the acquired language as their first language.
Ame,
That's a good point. I've never thought of "fluency" from that angle. My only question is, is there a clear line that can be drawn between "speaking fluently" and "speaking as a native speaker"?
I once helped Japanese tourists find the store they were looking for in downtown Seattle. One of them said "You speak Japanese well." Does that mean I spoke Japanese fluently but not as fluently as a typical native Japanese speaker does?
Another example. Gloria Estefan speaks both English and Spanish. She was born in Cuba and fled to the U.S. when she was one year old. I assume both Spanish and English are ner native languages, though she has a very slight Spanish accent when she speaks Engilsh.
That's a good point. I've never thought of "fluency" from that angle. My only question is, is there a clear line that can be drawn between "speaking fluently" and "speaking as a native speaker"?
I once helped Japanese tourists find the store they were looking for in downtown Seattle. One of them said "You speak Japanese well." Does that mean I spoke Japanese fluently but not as fluently as a typical native Japanese speaker does?
Another example. Gloria Estefan speaks both English and Spanish. She was born in Cuba and fled to the U.S. when she was one year old. I assume both Spanish and English are ner native languages, though she has a very slight Spanish accent when she speaks Engilsh.
>だいはど
Hrm, all tough considerations. And this is just my take on the matter, so take it with a grain of salt. ^.^
The fact that the tourist commented on your Japanese at all tends to make me think that you still had enough of an accent to be noticeable. Therefore Japanese was your second language and should be praised. As an American, I would never tell a Brit 'Hey, you speak English well' unless it was in jest. As a native-speaker, it's assumed that someone has a proficiency over their native tongue.
Regarding Gloria Estefan, I think this depends on which region in the US you're asking. (I'm being America-centric here as I don't have enough experience with other countries attitudes to feel as if I can comment on their reactions.) In many of the Southern states, the Latin influence is strong and many native speakers have a Latin accent when speaking English. New Mexico, for example, has families who’ve lived there for countless generations who still speak with a lyrical Mexican accent. But sadly, because most of the United States doesn’t think of this as ‘native English,’ many assume that English isn’t their first language and therefore they’re fluent in English but not a native-speaker. It’s really a form of linguistic racism, if you think about it.
I think that Singapore and India fall into this category as well. Though they speak English as a first language, many Americans don’t consider their accent to be that of a ‘native English speaker.’ Parents who may speak the language beautifully but have considerable accents are not seen as native-speakers though their children who grow up and adopt the accent that surrounds them are considered native-speakers. I guess it’s always in the human nature to classify others as either ‘us’ or ‘them.’
Hrm, all tough considerations. And this is just my take on the matter, so take it with a grain of salt. ^.^
The fact that the tourist commented on your Japanese at all tends to make me think that you still had enough of an accent to be noticeable. Therefore Japanese was your second language and should be praised. As an American, I would never tell a Brit 'Hey, you speak English well' unless it was in jest. As a native-speaker, it's assumed that someone has a proficiency over their native tongue.
Regarding Gloria Estefan, I think this depends on which region in the US you're asking. (I'm being America-centric here as I don't have enough experience with other countries attitudes to feel as if I can comment on their reactions.) In many of the Southern states, the Latin influence is strong and many native speakers have a Latin accent when speaking English. New Mexico, for example, has families who’ve lived there for countless generations who still speak with a lyrical Mexican accent. But sadly, because most of the United States doesn’t think of this as ‘native English,’ many assume that English isn’t their first language and therefore they’re fluent in English but not a native-speaker. It’s really a form of linguistic racism, if you think about it.
I think that Singapore and India fall into this category as well. Though they speak English as a first language, many Americans don’t consider their accent to be that of a ‘native English speaker.’ Parents who may speak the language beautifully but have considerable accents are not seen as native-speakers though their children who grow up and adopt the accent that surrounds them are considered native-speakers. I guess it’s always in the human nature to classify others as either ‘us’ or ‘them.’
Ame,
Wow, that's a quick response. :)
The funny thing is, I _am_ a native Japanese speaker. At least I was born and grew up in Japan. That, and the incident I mentioned above, makes me wonder if you can really tell between "speaking fluently" and "speaking at native level." It could be that my Japanese language has gone bad as I've spent many years in the U.S., or that the line between those level of proficiency isn't as clear as we tend to think.
Boy, this is a profound topic.
Wow, that's a quick response. :)
The funny thing is, I _am_ a native Japanese speaker. At least I was born and grew up in Japan. That, and the incident I mentioned above, makes me wonder if you can really tell between "speaking fluently" and "speaking at native level." It could be that my Japanese language has gone bad as I've spent many years in the U.S., or that the line between those level of proficiency isn't as clear as we tend to think.
Boy, this is a profound topic.
>だいはど
I think you're right... I don't think that there's a hard line. It's all subjective.
I'm Korean-American and I grew up here in the States yet I've still had people tell me that my grasp of English is amazing. ^.^;; I think it has a lot to do with expectations. Many people think that Americans are either white or black and forget about the other minorities. This can probably be broadened to say that many people think that native English speakers are from the States, Canada, Britian, Ireland, Australia and New Zealand and forget about other countries such as South Africa or India.
For all that we say that our world is shrinking, I still think that there are a lot of misconceptions and preconceived notions that we have to surmount before we can truly be a global society. ^.^
P.S. I'm at work. This is much more interesting than work. ^.~
I think you're right... I don't think that there's a hard line. It's all subjective.
I'm Korean-American and I grew up here in the States yet I've still had people tell me that my grasp of English is amazing. ^.^;; I think it has a lot to do with expectations. Many people think that Americans are either white or black and forget about the other minorities. This can probably be broadened to say that many people think that native English speakers are from the States, Canada, Britian, Ireland, Australia and New Zealand and forget about other countries such as South Africa or India.
For all that we say that our world is shrinking, I still think that there are a lot of misconceptions and preconceived notions that we have to surmount before we can truly be a global society. ^.^
P.S. I'm at work. This is much more interesting than work. ^.~
Ame,
>> I'm Korean-American and I grew up here in the States
>> yet I've still had people tell me that my grasp of English
>> is amazing. ^.^;;
Wow, really? I wouldn't be surprised if that happened in a small one-horse town somewhere in the Midwest, but in NY? I guess I've still got a whole lot to learn about the U.S. :o
>> I'm Korean-American and I grew up here in the States
>> yet I've still had people tell me that my grasp of English
>> is amazing. ^.^;;
Wow, really? I wouldn't be surprised if that happened in a small one-horse town somewhere in the Midwest, but in NY? I guess I've still got a whole lot to learn about the U.S. :o
さぃ…＞
I don't think it is just the Japanese, I can't recall how many times I've been on the phone with people in the US or the UK, and people do a double take when they ask for my name and I give it to them.
I was in London earlier in the month, and I had several shop attendants commenting, "your english is really very good", and I was like, "er... thanks...". Most people make the comment with the best of intentions, and I just thank them politely. If they happen to catch me in a bad mood, I have been tempted to say, "it is certainly better than yours" but that would be just mean and nasty.
It's like they think all Japanese have a peculiar affliction which involves muddling "l"s and "r"s, amongst other things.
I think it is that anywhere you go, it is still relatively rare to find people who look visibly foreign to speak with a native accent (or near enough).
Of course, native Japanese sounding foreign looking people are even rarer than Japanese who can do a passable impression of being a native on the phone (or to a visually impared person), but even the latter is pretty rare in my experience.
I don't think it is just the Japanese, I can't recall how many times I've been on the phone with people in the US or the UK, and people do a double take when they ask for my name and I give it to them.
I was in London earlier in the month, and I had several shop attendants commenting, "your english is really very good", and I was like, "er... thanks...". Most people make the comment with the best of intentions, and I just thank them politely. If they happen to catch me in a bad mood, I have been tempted to say, "it is certainly better than yours" but that would be just mean and nasty.
It's like they think all Japanese have a peculiar affliction which involves muddling "l"s and "r"s, amongst other things.
I think it is that anywhere you go, it is still relatively rare to find people who look visibly foreign to speak with a native accent (or near enough).
Of course, native Japanese sounding foreign looking people are even rarer than Japanese who can do a passable impression of being a native on the phone (or to a visually impared person), but even the latter is pretty rare in my experience.
This is actually a pretty interesting topic so id just drop in my nickel and say that I think being fluent in a language involves being very comfortable speaking a language and managing to express your thoughts thoroughly in that language.
Also, Im from New York and my parents are hispanic. Yet, I look very Caucasian. I get strange and surprising looks from others that speak spanish when I bust out speaking in Spanish to others of hispanic Heritage. Also, speaking spanish greatly helped me in learning to speak Japanese also. The pronounciation of the "Vowels" is nearly identical. So to no surprise, I always get the "Wow, your Japanese is good" from Japanese people as well. Far from fluent, but like any other language, it takes time.
I think being able to speak any language other than your native tongue is a blessing. Especially here in New York City.
Also, Im from New York and my parents are hispanic. Yet, I look very Caucasian. I get strange and surprising looks from others that speak spanish when I bust out speaking in Spanish to others of hispanic Heritage. Also, speaking spanish greatly helped me in learning to speak Japanese also. The pronounciation of the "Vowels" is nearly identical. So to no surprise, I always get the "Wow, your Japanese is good" from Japanese people as well. Far from fluent, but like any other language, it takes time.
I think being able to speak any language other than your native tongue is a blessing. Especially here in New York City.
さぃ…,
Thanks for your comment. I hope that's what it was. I'd still like to think my Japanese language is good enough to qualify as "native." ;)
しんのすけ，
I agree it's probably not just the Japanese. I'm somewhat surprised that you had an experience like that in London, though. I assume there's all different kinds of people live and work there.
Thanks for your comment. I hope that's what it was. I'd still like to think my Japanese language is good enough to qualify as "native." ;)
しんのすけ，
I agree it's probably not just the Japanese. I'm somewhat surprised that you had an experience like that in London, though. I assume there's all different kinds of people live and work there.
i think when there's nothing in between your thoughts and your speech, you can be considered fluent. to do that one can't be too bothered about pronounciation, its all about speaking with confidence.
i'm from hong kong, and we learn english since 6, not native speakers, but i understand the transition from a learner to a 'fluent' speaker. its only when u can forget about your nationality and start speaking confidently, you will be described as 'fluent' (at least people in england will have such opinion)
i'm from hong kong, and we learn english since 6, not native speakers, but i understand the transition from a learner to a 'fluent' speaker. its only when u can forget about your nationality and start speaking confidently, you will be described as 'fluent' (at least people in england will have such opinion)
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