☆ENGLISH ONLY☆コミュのPorn

This proposal has so much more to it. More than I can write on my cell phone.

In short, this is an attempt to curb all adult manga and video in general. The politician behind this, Ishi-forgot-name, is "appalled by gays on TV." While I agree that ppl shouldn't be readind porn in public areas, this proposal isn't about that. I also would question the definition of "children" used in the proposal, since adult material is available for 18+, BUT anyone under 20 is still considered a minor in Japan. So when the claim that this media is too easily accessible to children, surely it doesn't refer to 19/20yo's... or does it？

Also, have you read that 10 companies have withdrawn from the 2012 Tokyo Anime Convention in protest？ Big names such as Shogakkan, Kodakawa, etc.

Well I took my friend down to Akihabara to check out the Otaku culture.
I'm well aware I am disensitized to it, but on the 2nd for of the adult restricted comic area, I even exceeded my own tolerance when I discovered the pre-schooler rape comic with small child in fear and freaky looking pervert looming over her.

He asked if we could leave Akihabara after that.
I am sure you would be arrested just for drawing things like that in the UK, let alone selling it.

That was enough to disturb a grown man, and the trouble with any restricted areas, is that once it is out of the shop it can go anyway.

It's interesting that people are not allowed to bring foreign 'porn' (I know people who have had "lad's mags" confiscated as porn) into Japan through customs, but within Japan extreme material is fine.

I'm for it.

If I saw someone here looking at explicit imagery (i.e. porn magazines) in a train with children nearby, I'm not afraid to tell them to put it away. Shit like that is for private viewing, not on a train or in the public where it could easily cause offence.

I for one don't care if people view porn or not, that's their choice, but pretty much the entire purpose of it is for sexual gratification, which should, like I just said, be done in private.

Now as to the content itself, I'm not sure where to draw the line. I'm 19, and I'm not sure what the age of consent here in Japan is, but in my part of Australia, it's 16, when I was 16/17 I was already sleeping with women in their late 20's and early 30's, simply because I enjoyed it. My point for this? Well, if we're to eliminate all porn that depicts 'minors', where should the line be drawn? Should it include all the porn that has girls that are obviously of age, but are dressed in high school uniforms? I'm not big on high school girls, contrary to the note my friend left on my Mixi page (I was trying to tell her how disturbingly sexual the highschool uniforms here in Japan are, in comparison to back home, but probably due to language barriers she may have misinterpreted it, and even if it was the case, it hardly matters, I am 19 after all), but I can understand how many guys may enjoy such porn.

But porn depicting rape, mutilation, children (I need not need to clarify this I hope), is best left banned. This is not a contradiction, children and minors don't necessitate the same thing, many high school students are 18, but would still constitute a 'minor', I wouldn't call them a 'child' though.

I find some Japanese adult content really disturbing. Ben mentioned manga that have child sexual assault....I've seen one which glorified depictions of rape. I don't really have a problem with porn but some of the more violent stuff, or the stuff which shows women being humiliated or violated....well I just wonder what sort of man would get any enjoyment out of that sort of thing. I'm really hesitant to say this because I try not to judge, but I think some Japanese men are degenerates....now obviously there are plenty of Australian, American and Englishmen who are degenerates but in Japan it seems to be accepted as normal.

I think in the passion of the moment, it's common for men to become somewhat more aggressive than normal, with all the testosterones and whatnot flowing through their body, which is fueling their mood at the time. Butthat is different to systematically planning to abuse someone sexually, especially when they get off on the fact that they are humiliating the person in question.

The foreigners here in Japan that I've seen are different in the fact that most of them wouldn't have confidence back home due to their looks or are self-conscience of something or other, whilst they are aware that in Japan even an unattractive male in Western countries is 'kakkoii' or 'kawaii' here in Japan. Just last night I was at a bar, and I noticed a British man that had hit on my married friend before, he tried to hide the fact that he was married and had a kid, but my friend said what is the reason for it, she's not here looking for a one night stand and that it's best to be honest.

He was with two Japanese girls, and as he went to buy a drink, I informed them of his marital status, just to let them know. You might think that that may make me a dickhead, but I didn't tell them anything other than that, if they still wanted to fuck him or whatever afterwards, that's fine, but it's better than them doingsomething with a guy that they are unaware of him being married or whatever. It's like on Saturday morning, after drinking all night, I was walking back to the subway with a Japanese girl, ahead of her friends, simply wishing to go to each of our abodes, but some African American guy insisted on getting in our way and then nudging into me and calling me 'white boy', probably because he thought I was up to something else withat girl.

My point is, Japan seems to attract quite a few losers and dickheads, here for easy lays. Of course that's not the case for everyone. Like last night at the bar, I was with a Japanese friend who is about to go to Germany, and I bumped into a guy I met there last time, and he was with a German friend. The four of us spent a good few hours just talking about Germany and tips for my friend, since she's travelling alone.

I just hope that people try to show each other a bit more respect, it's okay to do sexually deviant things if both parties are willing to do so, and it's safe. Just those videos where girls are screaming to stop, and obviously don't appear to be enjoying isn't justified because at the end of the 'shoot' they are paid a couple hundred or thousand dollars, especially if they are forced to do more than agreed upon.

Like, somewhere in Eastern Europe, a woman responded to an advertisement looking for models, thinking it was a photo shoot she seemed okay with it, but upon getting there they asked if it was okay if they did some light SM, just a couple slaps to the face or something alone those lines. However, it turned out that they ended up doing a lot more, and it was filmed and put on the internet. Thankfully the porn company got caught out and I believe was closed down shortly after. So just because it's porn, doesn't necessitate the woman having agreed to it as well, it's not all acting... I don't know about the case in Japan though, I don't getoff on women being subjected to pain and humiliation and obviously not enjoying it. Which leads to why I mentioned before that I believe porn depicting rape or such be banned completely, it's just too risky for it to perhaps not be just acting.

>Trent

>I'm for it.

>If I saw someone here looking at explicit imagery (i.e. porn magazines) in a train with children nearby, I'm not afraid to tell them to put it away. Shit like that is for private viewing, not on a train or in the public where it could easily cause offence.

I'm sorry, but could you please explain how this ordinance is going to prevent perverts from looking at porn on trains...? I'm confused here...

"Or should porn be restricted even more (say, not allowable on the trains where children might see it)? "

I am for more regulation against viewing porn and sexual conduct in the public. I was simple stating that even if there was no regulation/laws against it, I would still ask for the person(s) to wait until they get home or at least a toilet.

Trent,

Actually, after reading your comment #5, I think I'm pretty sure that you totally do not understand what this ordinance is about...

>Ian
>I think some Japanese men are degenerates

I would argue, though, that those Japanese men have a right to be degenerates as long as they aren't harming anyone in their degeneracy.

Yet, reply number 5 stemmed out from the discussion of manga/anime, I am aware of that. Still, I saw no harmin putting it forth.

So is it fine for people to view child pornography, since they are themselves not the ones who are harming theboy/girl, just getting off on the actions of others?

>>I think some Japanese men are degenerates

> I would argue, though, that those Japanese men
> have a right to be degenerates as long as they
> aren't harming anyone in their degeneracy.

I guess to a degree it depends on how you define harm. I'm sure that very few of the men who look at rape manga actually rape women. But I think I could say with some confidence that men who use this type of pornography look at real women and fantasize about raping them. I don't think it's possible to have that sort of fantasy and still give the woman standing in front of you the respect and dignity she deserves. Just the fantasy on it's own has transformed that living breathing woman into a piece of meat.

I originally didn't want to be judgmental and here am I being judgmental. The truth is I don't really know if pornography that depicts two consenting adults having a bit of a bump is any better than the more violent, exploitative porn....but I think it probably is.

>So is it fine for people to view child pornography, since they are themselves not the ones who are harming theboy/girl, just getting off on the actions of others?

Are you even aware that the "boys and girls" being discussed here aren't real children, but drawings of them? I honestly don't see how that's morally objectionable. Distasteful? Sure, but that's a different story.

And for the record, the ordinance doesn't propose to ban that kind of stuff, just make it inaccessible to children.

>But I think I could say with some confidence that men who use this type of pornography look at real women and fantasize about raping them.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I think they have a right to fantasize about whatever the hell they want. And the people around them have a right to treat those guys like the sick pervs they are.

>> Maybe I'm crazy, but I think they have a right to
>> fantasize about whatever the hell they want.

But in the end I don't think this is an issue of freedom of expression. We don't allow people access to snuff films, or films of actual rape or child sexual abuse. I think that's a reasonable decision. I think it's also reasonable to restrict access to material that glorifies rape or child sexual abuse.
If sick people think sick thoughts, there's not much I can do about that. What we as a society can do is have censorship laws that don't legitimize those ideas.

I'm pretty sure these guys that draw these use real children as 'inspiration' for their works.

You do realise this, right?

>We don't allow people access to snuff films, or films of actual rape or child sexual abuse.

My understanding is that those films are morally reprehensible because you would actually be killing / raping / sexually abusing people in order to make those films.

>I'm pretty sure these guys that draw these use real children as 'inspiration' for their works.

I'm sorry, but you need to be clearer as to what it is you're implying. Are you saying that these artists actually rape children?

I guess my point is that there is a line we draw. But it's not a clear line that if you fall on one side it's OK and if you fall on the other it's not OK. It's a fuzzy and blurry line. You might say that manga which glorify rape or child sexual abuse don't cross that line, but it's always subjective. I personally would say they do cross that line.
I can intellectually understand where you are coming from, but I don't agree with you. I think censorship boards also accept that the line is blurry. In Australia Nagisa Oshima's film "In the Realm of the Senses" was banned for many years. It depicted actual sexual intercourse and a very destructive relationship...I think the full uncut version is still banned in Japan. I happen to disagree with that ban. I think it's an important film which though explicit doesn't really cross that line for me.
A French film called Baise Moi ( the title is quite provocative) was also banned. In that case I thought the ban was appropriate, but an awful lot of people objected to the ban.

Okay.

The men and perhaps women who draw these images, are obviously attracted to children in a sexual manner. Do you think it's healthy for them if we give them an industry in which they can use this perversion to actually make money from?

The only reason it's so popular is that it's a way for them to have child pornography without bearing the full risk of having in possession child porn.

That is messed up, just like the persons themselves who make it, and who buy/view it for their own pleasure.

For freedom of expression, I think this is clearly an infringement, although in the revised version, concessions were given in order to make it pass the initial vote. Keep in mind that there are previous laws that currently prohibit "extreme" material, live action or animated. The new revisions apply only to anime, live action depictions are still allowed to depict such things, and can just as easily make their way into a "child's" hands. Its pretty clear that this may have a lot to do with which industries certain politicians like and dislike.

Ishihara has been known to be extreme-right in his political views, yet people in Tokyo keep on re-electing him... but let's look at the statistics... Registerd voters in Tokyo: 10.4 mil., Votes for Ishihara: 2.8 mil. >_< But I digress, back on topic.

As for the actual content argument that is being professed in this discussion, that in itself is a large controversy, but that's not what this law is about. But to address content concerns, I'd like to say that for the extremely select few who have severe enough mental and deviance problems to act on their desires, manga depicting such deviances will not be the trigger that causes a material manesfestation. IF it did, then you would not only ban/restrict depictions of sexual acts involving prepubescent minors, but also depictions of murder, rape, and any other type of deviant or criminal behavior. Just because a group (even if it's the majority) opposes another group's deviant desires, they would be hypocritical to restrict the publication of such material if they believed in freedom of speech.

For those of you who do NOT have such deviances, it would be difficult to understand. However, I can probably say with confidence that most deviants who enjoy adult animation and manga do not imagine themselves doing the same things IRL. There is a boundary between 2d and 3d, one that cannot be crossed. If this legislation was aimed at protecting children, it would not target the anime/manga industry. It would
encompass ALL media, or even target live-action media. Of which there are many much more repulsing and distrubing items being sold. Such as pre-teen gravure idol DVDs depicting 8yo's in revealing outfits or implied nude photos, AV films with barely 18yo (or not) girls that are dressed and made up to look 12. The former which can be seen outside of the restricted areas since it's not "adult material," and the latter which can be seen ad nauseum withing the restricted areas.

And lastly, with Japan being the leader with fiber-to-home, and one of the top nations with broadband internet availability... it's not hard to do a quick google image serach and find restricted viewing material.


>Trent
If what you said about the manga artists were true, what about screenwriters who write murder thrillers or incorporate violence, rape, and crime？ Would you consider them violent people, rapists, and criminals？

> Trentさん

Also, what is considered messed up is relative. Until a solid link showing that artist depictions relate directly to real world harm, this type of restriction is undue.

18: aznatama
It's important to draw a distinction between depictions of abhorrent
behavior which just show the behavior, and those depictions which
glorify it. I would never suggest a blanket ban on all depictions of
rape / violence against women or children....but when that behavior
is shown in such a way so as to titillate the reader / viewer I think
maybe a line has been crossed.

>> But to address content concerns, I'd like to say that for the
>> extremely select few who have severe enough mental and
>> deviance problems to act on their desires, manga depicting
>> such deviances will not be the trigger that causes a material
>> manesfestation.

I don't actually disagree with you but I don't think it is an established
fact that this sort of material doesn't lead to actual criminal activity.
People who read this material are hardly likely to be willing to
enter into a control study and if they do they certainly won't admit
to breaking the law.

> Ianさん

A lot of conclusions are drawn from flawed logic that if a→b, then b→a. They catch child molesters with a large stash of related material, so they mistakenly conclude that the material led to the behavior. But looking at the sheer volume of material that was sold, one should be able to correctly conclude that this material isn't the cause of the deviance.

I agree that a line needs to be drawn. But a law allowing that line drawing is already in place. This new law targets a specific industry discrimately. They are targeting the manga industry, while live-action porn companies are doing the same things in relation to glorifying sex crimes.

This whole thing is a clusterfuck and if nothing else there may be a 2ch/Akiba-backed candidate in the next election who will send Ishihara out on his ass.

This is arguably the industry's fault, because instead of INNOVATING and coming up with BETTER SERIES, they chose to continue pandering nonstop to the hardcore otaku market and diminish their base by scaring just about everyone else away. That doesn't mean good taste should be legislated. Creepy schoolgirl loli manga shouldbe like abortion should be: completely legal and rarely seen because there are better alternatives.

I hope to god the Big 10 grasp their newfound spine with all their might regarding the TIAF boycott. Ishihara getting embarrassed on a global stage woud be a late Christmas gift for everyone.

> ダン@AMF4 12/22さん

Agreed. Although, I really don't think the deviant segment has really grown.

>aznatama

Never said they did. They're just getting a lot more attention than they used to because the industry knows they can make 20 or 30 carbon copies of Kiss x Sis for the price of one Evangelion (which prolly couldn't be made at all under this law) and the hardcore otaku will absolutely lap it up.

I thought this was pretty hilarious. Manga adaptation of Ishihara's literary works.

http://blog.chakuriki.net/archives/51108259.html

http://blog.chakuriki.net/archives/51105234.html

http://blog.chakuriki.net/archives/51107205.html

kind of similar to Tim but,

There are so many mangas these day that you can find any kinds of stories which glorify criminal
acts such as murder, gangs (yakuza), suicide, cannibalism...etc and of course rape and child porn.

Why on earth only the last two should be banned?

This law isn't about a ban. It's about targeted discrimination against a specific type of media. Basically saying, "in the name of protecting children, we should hide away manga depicting children and obscene acts." It says nothing about other types of media. Nor does it mention an already existing blanket law that covers this already.

27: ヒデ
>> Why on earth only the last two should be banned?

It's probably due to societal standards. For whatever reason we see sexually violating women and children as worse than murder. I actually feel this way and I know it's completely irrational to believe as deeply as I do that raping a woman is somehow worse than murdering a man.
I oppose the death penalty.....but even though I say I always oppose it, in my heart I secretly support it for men who abuse children and while maybe the feeling isn't as strong I can sometimes support it for rapists. (I'm being honest....don't hit me over the head with it later).