☆ENGLISH ONLY☆コミュのCourteous or rude?

I'm undecided on this, if a waiter or combi staff asks you if you want chopsticks or a fork for your meal, assuming the meal is normally eatten with chopsticks, do you consider it courteous that has a foreigner they asked you or rude as he assumed you couldn't use chopsticks?

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[7] mixiユーザー 10月07日 18:30

I hate when they do it! Do we give chop sticks to japanese in Europe when they are eating pizza???????!!!!!!!!

[9] mixiユーザー 10月07日 18:53

It's really a shame when good intention is put to blame.

[10] mixiユーザー 10月07日 19:10

I personally (having lived in Asia for 2,5 years now) don't like it too much if I'm asked if I need a fork. As I don't like it when people seem to think it's a miracle that I speak Japanese, fall dead from their chair when I write down something in kanji after having conversed with them for half an hour in Japanese, etc.
It would be much worse if I was just given a fork without being asked.

Well, the waiter can observe the foreigner and check if he looks disorientated and shy or if he seems to be reading the menu with great interest.

Tourists might be very gratefull if they were helped out with a fork.

I guess a good waiter wouldn't give a fork to someone who spoke to him in acceptable Japanese, though.

:-)

[11] mixiユーザー 10月07日 22:15

well, I don't think they have any intention of putting down on you by asking you if you want to use chopsticks or a fork. It is a kind of instinct response to a person who is from another country,considering his/her convenience through the cultural difference. It is better that you are not forced to adjust yourself in different culture.

[13] mixiユーザー 10月07日 23:11

Meg, really, imagine that you are japanese and in a combini in France or anywhere else in the world, when buying a salad or else, the guy gives you chopsticks instead of a fork, how would you feel? Like karyu, I cannot stand when people are looking at me with two big eyes because I said anything in Japanese, we are not monkey, we are able to use f..king chopsticks and we can also learn Japanese. In my city (Geneva) we have 25% of foreigners, and we don't get surprised when they are talking to us in French, and don't give them chopsticks in restaurant to eat a cheese fondue!!!!!!!!! Can you imagine yourself eating cheese fondu with chopsticks? I can't

[14] mixiユーザー 10月07日 23:57

DJStout>
I don't think the comparison you are using is a good one, as forks are more common than chopsticks across a variety of countries. And there are a lot of tourists that visit Japan that do NOT have the skills you obviously do. Many do NOT speak fluent Japanese. European languages are a bit easier to learn than Japanese (when English is the first language.)
Also, Silver said the waiter ASKED - he did not just give a fork instead of chopsticks. I am sure this can be construed as rude by some, but I can also assume the waiter has served many clueless tourists who appreciated being asked if they want a fork.

[16] mixiユーザー 10月08日 02:05

Using a pair of chopsticks isnt rocket science, actually quite simple to use, most people i know from the UK can use chopsticks quite well, so the idea that most foreigners cant use chopsticks i dont think is correct. If the staff give me a choice i dont mind it, actually i quite like that. But if im given a fork without being asked or given the option then im not sure i like that. After 8 years in Japan i still dont understand why anyone would want to use chopsticks when eating corn, foreigner or Japanese.

[17] mixiユーザー 10月08日 02:29

I've been in Japan for just over six years now and I agree completely with what Tony says. As an interesting side note, I went to a Korean restaurant with some friends (all of whom save one was Korean) a couple of months ago and I was given a metal spoon instead of chopsticks with which to eat rice. I felt quite insulted as I hadn't been given a choice at first, but then I notice that my friends were also using the same type of metal spoons. I felt a bit of a fool when one of my friends explained that Korean peaple usually eat rice with metal spoons.

[18] mixiユーザー 10月08日 03:03

>Tony
"i still dont understand why anyone would want to use chopsticks when eating corn, foreigner or Japanese."

It's to build hand strength. Something to do when bored.J/K.

Anywayz,
Let me say this from the "server" point of view.
I used to work at a Japanese curry restaurant in the US.
I never asked anybody of any race what kind of utensils
they wanted to eat with.
I just usually waited till they asked, unless they
had children with them.
And when non-asian customers asked for chopsticks to eat their
curry, I wouldn't deny it either...although
I'd wonder why? Just like Tony.
I just put "non-asian" because they were always
non-asians. But I don't know, there might be asians out there that eat curry with chopsticks.
In US, we kinda have to be sensitive not to stereotype,
especially when you're working.
or else we'd get sued.

Who knows, maybe the servers think that they're being
nice or courteous by asking. Like maybe they're
thinking
" Oh, it might be embarassing or hard
for them to ask for a fork, so I'll ask them first."
They're still stereotyping...but it could be from
their experience. Maybe they're asked for a fork
all the time after they bring chopsticks out, and to
save another trip, maybe..just maybe?... they ask.

Well, that was a long kinda off topic ramble.

For me, since I'm Nikkeijin, I imagined going to the
South where there's not much Japanese and asked the
same question.
Conclusion...I'd consider the attitude of the person
that's asking me. I'm thinking it's probably hard
for a person to figure out what's rude and what's not
when they're not used to people of different races.

I guess it's going to take a lot more time for the
people of Japan
to learn how to melt the pot.

[19] mixiユーザー 10月08日 03:10

I think the waiter had good intentions & was trying to give extra good service by showing his consideration. No offence should be taken............:)

[20] mixiユーザー 10月08日 03:11

I vote for "not rude". If we sit around thinking about what's rude or not all day, we'll be offended by every little politically or unpolitically correct action. The important thing is enjoying life! :)

[21] mixiユーザー 10月08日 12:06

i also vote "not rude" because you still have a choice. i've been given a fork to eat japanese and chinese food when the all the asians around me got chopsticks. THAT's offensive.

another "rude" experience - there's a izakaya called hapa in town, and just becuase they are hapas, both my brothers have been asked if they want to work there. they were customers. for that, i have never gone to eat there.

since i only get paid $25/hour, i'll gladly come and work for you for minimum wage!

... right

[22] mixiユーザー 10月08日 13:41

I also think it isn't rude to ask.

It's better than assuming that you don't know how to use chopsticks. Often, I go to Asian restaurants around me, and they assume that because I'm non-Asian I don't know how to use chopsticks. I always have to ASK for them, which is very irritating. And then they give me this weird/incredulous look like they're surprised that an American actually knows how to use them. That's offensive.

There's a Japanese restaurant near me that I frequent, because the food is good, and it's actually owned and run by Japanese. Not by Koreans like many in the LA area. That's a little secret about LA -- many "Japanese" restaurants are owned/run by Koreans. You can always tell those restaurants, beacuse Japanese never eat there -- always Gaijin.

Anyhoo, I went there the other night, and they had a new girl there, who didn't know that I eat with chopsticks as the others do, so she gave me a fork. Quickly, the other waitress said to her that I eat with a chopstick, so the girl whizzed over, muttered an apology, and replaced my fork with a chopstick. My food arrived, and I started to eat.

The girl stood there. I looked at her and grinned a sarcastic grin. Then resumed by eating. She stood there more, and stared at my eating. I tried to ignore her, but it's hard to ignore a cute perfumed young lady standing less than 1 M from you. Even harder to ignore when she's staring at you while you're eating. There was nobody in the restaurant except for me, as Tuesdays are slow, so I thought maybe she was bored.

I finally got tired of her standing there, and said in Japanese "WHAT?!! WHY ARE YOU STARING AT ME?!!" (I didn't yell; I was polite about it, as this girl was very young and she looked like she was very sensitive).

She apologized a trillion times and said in Japanese "I've never seen someone use chopsticks with their left hand." And then apologized another trillion times and scurried off behind the counter like a mouse in the kitchen when you turn the light on.

[23] mixiユーザー 10月08日 13:56

If you are left handed like me, than the left hand is the hand you would normally use with Chopsticks or a fork. Although I can also use my right hand, I prefer to use my left:) And theres nothing wrong with a waiter asking politely if someone wants to use either or.

[24] mixiユーザー 10月08日 16:16

Toade>
Funny story, though I think the girl was staring at you not only because you're non-Japanese and eating skillfully with chopsticks, but because you were using your left hand... maybe she was raised in a traditional Japanese household that had bias against left-handed people? haha.

[25] mixiユーザー 10月08日 17:04

I see tons of left-handed Japanese people. Yes, they use chopsticks with their left hand.

[26] mixiユーザー 10月08日 19:16

My dad grew up with severe retraining to keep him from using his left hand for writing or eating.. The result is that he became ambidextrous. He even throws equally well with both hands. That was 60 years ago though. I'm sure some rules and ideas regarding left handedness have softened up a bit since then.

And to stay relevant to the topic, I think stopping to ask the customer what he'd like to use is very much the lesser evil compared to assuming what he/she wants. Who wants to explain themselves to the waiter each and every time they order, what utensils are acceptable to them? While some people might be thin-skinned about being asked, consider the option of being given chopsticks only, then finding oneself unable to use them, trust me, I've seen that happen too.

Like エリカ said, if everyone around you got chopsticks and you (if you are the nail that sticks out), got a fork, that'd be worse than being asked what you'd like to use beforehand.

[27] mixiユーザー 10月08日 23:09

Well, at least they ASK you! If I go, they just automatically bring me a fork and an english menu and my husband chopsticks and a Japanese menu...

I think it kinda rude to ask, but seeing as Japanese society is homogenous it is fine...

[28] mixiユーザー 10月09日 03:47

I'm half Korean, and have been using chopsticks all my life, and now that I can decide for myself, I almost always use a fork if somebody gives me a choice. Chopsticks arent cool, they're really pretty stupid and inefficient.

[29] mixiユーザー 10月09日 04:28

I always get a bit blue when they ask if I want chopsticks...especially when they ask in English...after my BF and I walk up to the counter having a conversation in Japanese. (My Bf is Japanese, I am white.)

This happens to me all the time. I guess they assume that I am just..."too white" and don't know how to use them?
So yes, I do get insulted...but after I get over my stupid pride...I smile and thank them in Japanese :D
No matter how much I would love to blend in, and despite the fact I was raised in Japanese customs since I was a chid, I've come to accept the fact that many Japanese are still zenophobic
, and will treat most foreigners...like foreigners- whether you are white, black, or non-Japanese Asian, or even a Japanese born and raised "hafu" that looks perhaps too foreign.

The only time It does not bother me, is if I visit a Japnese restaurant that has, say a French, or Italian theme...or such...

Sigh...
(When given a choice, I typically pick chopsticks, as I have been eating with them for most of my life...and it is simply more natural to me.)

[30] mixiユーザー 10月09日 06:43

I agree with the above. I don't get offended by a fork being offered, or by the suprise that i can use chopsticks i just accept this is the way it is and probably always will be.

[31] mixiユーザー 10月09日 11:09

TokyoOG -->

I'm a lefty. What's interesting is that both my parents are righthanded. One of my sisters is a righty, one is ambidextrous (true ambidextrous) and the other is a lefty.

I use my left hand for most things -- like chopsticks, writing, painting, playing the guitar, using my computer mouse, etc. -- but there are some things I HAVE to use my right hand for.

Pr0digalS0n -->

I went there yesterday afternoon again, and had a conversation with her. She can't really speak English well, so we spoke in Japanese. Apparently she had never seen somebody eat with their left hand before, as you had surmised. You were correct!

[33] mixiユーザー 10月11日 23:38

I think it's nice to be asked. They're just trying to do what's right by you.

Some people get offended at the slightest thing, I guess... lighten up!

[35] mixiユーザー 10月12日 22:55

Hello. I'm Japanese. I usually just enjoy reading these topics. but Today, Ill try to say something...( because this community is for practicing English, right? ..?? no?)
---------
I have some foreigner friends and they always complain that Japanese are surprised if they use chopsticks. SO, now, I know they use chopsticks quite well.

however, one day, when my friend's parents visited Japan, we went to a Japanese restaurant. At the time, I was surprised they couldn't use chopsticks.

And also when I was working at a restaurant( not Japanese restaurant)in Australia, a lot of Japanese tourists came there, and if they were not really young, they asked me if we have chopsticks most of the times.

I may be able to say from my experience that older poeple are not used to other cultures.

My other bad habit is that I have started to talk in English if you look like an English speaker, even if you speak Japanese or want to talk in Japanese. I'm trying NOT to do it, but sometimes I just do it.I think because I want to talk in English and maybe show off that I CAN SPEAK ENGLISH! ( even if its not good...)
I think it's also rude for me to do that to foreigners.

If I'm a waitress in Japan, and if foreigners come in, I will TRY to say welcome in Japaense and have a chat in Japanese. then, I will wait and see if you need help or not. If you need help, I will ask you about the menu or if you need a fork. ...

[37] mixiユーザー 10月13日 14:19

From the Japanese standpoint of view, it depends on a person who asks you. Nowadays we are so easily disppointed with rude clerks, regardless of their ages, that we tend to forget the substantial part of this action. It springs from our true heart, not from ritualistic mannerism. Unfornately, as many of you said above, even this trivial asking words might irritate you. But one thing is clear. It doesn't follow all Japanese are zenophobia or something just because they bother to ask you in English or Japanese.

[38] mixiユーザー 10月13日 14:56

i don't think its rude when asked if i prefer chopsticks. its just a form-statement, like they really don't think about it at all.

like the people at mcdonald's asking "would you like fries with that?"

[39] mixiユーザー 10月13日 14:59

I just say, I eat with my hands, not chopsticks or fork necessary....

[40] mixiユーザー 10月13日 16:27

I'm even easier, I just pucker up and suck the food off the plate. No dirty hands see? Then I carry the leftovers out behind my ears.

[41] mixiユーザー 10月13日 22:30

I would not assume such a question of forks and chopsticks to be rude... The waiter can't read the costumer's mind to know if he can use chopsticks or not... seems like a perfectly reasonable question. I would only feel offended if I went repeatedly to the same restaurant, and the waiters, who probably had already served me, would always ask the question, even if they already know my preference.

[43] mixiユーザー 10月14日 06:45

That can depend on the type of food that's being ordered. A lot of Japanese food can be just as easily eaten with a fork as with chopsticks because Japanese food tends to come already bite-sized. But here we're also assuming you're proficient with chopsticks.

There's not quite the same crossover for North American or "western" dishes and the different utensils. Chopsticks and steak or chopsticks and lasagna would just be stupid, so that should pretty much never happen.

[44] mixiユーザー 10月14日 07:17

sherriDOO>
I understand your feelings, but think of it this way: plenty of foreigners walk into Japanese (and other Asian restaurants) all the time, and when they're offered chopsticks, guess what happens? A LARGE AMOUNT OF THEM ASK FOR A FORK. If you run a restaurant, it gets pretty irritating if all your customers keep asking for a different utensil, so after awhile, most restaurants decide to be pro-active and just offer forks.

I have friend who runs a Chinese restaurant here in the States and the place settings are always chopsticks + Chinese style spoon, because he wants to keep a semi-traditional atmosphere at the restaurant. But you know what? Non-Asian people walk into the restaurant all the time, and 8 out 10 always insist on getting a fork. The waiters/waitresses don't even offer one, but they still get asked and they end up giving the customers a fork.

So if you feel insulted, try to take it in stride... basically, you're suffering because loads of other foreigners have chosen to bring their cultural imperialism into the restaurants they frequent (ha!) and demanded forks... ;)

[46] mixiユーザー 10月14日 10:12

Hmmm i always get given both. They don't even bother to asking. Is that rude? i don't really care but i do have a big collection of forks and chopsticks that staff throw in.

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