This one is going to be deep and possibly challenge your beliefs. If you aren't interested in this type of subject matter, I suggest you choose another topic to participate in.
I'm an atheist, so I don't believe in an afterlife and I also don't believe in paranormal activity. Also, belief is the wrong word here. This is not a faith based discussion, there is no theology in this, only science. Science is generally regarded as fact until proven wrong. The great thing about science is that it actually looks for ways to prove itself wrong, and will gladly accept new theories over old ones if sound. The other thing we will cover really quick is that theories are considered fact until proven wrong, but are not considered law. Hypothesis are how theories start, they are based on facts but aren't tested vigorously.
What founds my way of thinking is scientific nature and facts. I am happy to prove myself wrong, but if there are no facts to support something, then I consider it false and inconsequential.
This discussion takes into consideration there is no afterlife. Whatever you may believe outside of science is considered faith and theology, so it doesn't apply. There is no room for ifs, buts, or an afterlife is fact because of what a particular faith dictates.
On to the topic.
In many fictional stories, authors think of ways to cheat death. Some examples are cloning and uploading a digitized mind into the brain. This sounds like a good solution, and one that is probably possible within the next 50 years. However, lets look at this situation closer. If I make a clone of myself and upload my mind into it, it still isn't me. In most pop culture, this method is used to get around dying. Let me explain why this doesn't work.
Lifeform A (Me) and Lifeform B (Clone)
We see there are two lifeforms. Lets say for the sake of morality, Lifeform B is just a body with no "soul," for lack of a better term.
Step 1 requires we have a back up copy of our mind. Lets say this is possible and we can make an exact duplicate for the sake of demonstration.
Step 2 requires we upload said mind into the soulless body.
Step 3 requires the body awakens with your mind intact and functioning 100%.
We've cheated death.
However, lets look again.
Lifeform A (Me) and Lifeform B (Clone)
We have a problem here.
I'm still alive, yet I have a duplicate of myself now. It walks, it talks, it has my memories. However, it may not behave 100% like me and might not make the same exact situation I would if we were in the same situation together. Also, look at what I just wrote. We. Its not me, since I am still Lifeform A. This does nothing to extend my life and my existence, only that I've made an exact replica with my memories. The replica, depending on it's age vs mine, will live until it dies and meets oblivion like all other life. So, what happens now? Do we exterminate Lifeform A? If so, that means I die. The whole point of going through all this is to NOT die, so we have failed good sirs and madams!
This is never taken into consideration in immortality theories. This is not an option.
Howeve, allow me to modify this situation a little. Lets change it so that Lifeform B is an exact replica of my body, except the spinal cord and brain have been removed or not grown when the body was. Lets say surgical procedures in the future are so advanced we can do brain transplants. I could then transplant my brain into the new body grown for me.
Lifeform A (just my shell) and Lifeform B (Me in a new body)
This could work. But we must take into consideration brain diseases such as Alzheimer's and the fact all our bodies cells reproduce slower and slower each cell generation. How long will my brain last? My brain is what houses my existence. It must remain in tact, or else my consciousness dies and my recognition of my existence along with it. If I can't recognize my own existence, I no longer exist. The brain will degenerate faster than the body in this situation. We could keep a back up of my mind, but then an upload would erase me and it would be my backup, not me.
It would visually look like this:
Lifeform B (Me) and Lifeform B (Backup of my mind)
This would be two lifeforms, but with the same body. This is a failure, as my existence has been overwritten with another copy of myself. This situation fails as well.
Next situation:
Lifeform A (Me) and Digitized Mind (My backup)
We make exact replicas of our minds digitally and exist in cyberspace. However, once the mind is copied, the original mind will still exist. Already this is a failure, and not an option.
Another situation:
Cryogenic freezing. This is not possible with today's technology. We can preserve humans with cryonics, however, they can't be unfrozen. Lets say we advance cryonics so we may unfreeze humans. Someone could be put into a cryonic state for centuries. However, lack of brain activity isn't really existing since your consciousness is out of operation. You do not realize you exist, until unfrozen and brought back. Then, you will die as you normally would if you choose to live outside of your cryonic state. What would be the purpose? Fail.
Next:
Cybernetic augmentation. Parts of the body are machine, parts aren't. Again, the biological parts would fail over time because of cell's progeny's lifespans. The mechanical parts would need regular maintenance and who really wants to put up with glitchy body parts? Still, your lifespan could be increased a ten fold if it had parts that would not fail because of cellular degeneration. However, there is a reason our bodies are made from cells and not elements such as steel or aluminum. There is a reason our bones are porous and have marrow, it all works together for a reason. Failure!
Next:
Nanotechnology. I think this would be the most likely scenario. Having little nanobots coursing through your body and repairing parts of the body as they start to have cellular degeneration. Of course, how this is possible, I do not know, since when the cell multiplies it's off spring has a shorter lifespan, hence our aging. I don't think nanotechnology would have the capability of regenerating dying cells. Is this an option? Possibly, but then possibly not. This seems like another failure.
Last thing I'll touch on:
http://
Cancer cells will replicate indefinitely. Our cells lose a little bit of telomere every time. Cancer cells don't. However, cancer cells will continue to replicate and cause problems. If a median could be found... our cells would replicate indefinitely. We would achieve immortality.
Some thoughts:
I chose the first situation to elaborate since it seems like the most likely scenario that would happen. A clone, and then a mind transfer. It also seems to be the most popular sci-fi method in pop culture. However, as I sketched out, it just won't work. We will die and our progeny, the clone, will live on, possibly at the cost of our very lives. Absolutely not an option.
Mechanical methods would not work simply because we would need our organic brains, which deteriorate over time.
The most scientific and realistic method would most likely be the last. Our aging is the cause of us dying, all accidents and unfortunates aside. This would be the most logical place to start. What makes us die? We know it is our cells dividing.
I think about this stuff usually when discussions about after life or religion pop up, and the internet is filled with it almost anywhere you look. I don't want to die, I don't want my existence to end. That is the purpose of life, all forms of life strife to continue on. Except, I don't want to continue on my species, but myself instead. The thought of dying has me freaked out. I once passed out for a few minutes and didn't even know it. For that duration of time, I didn't know I existed. I just knew that I blacked out and came to at some point later. In death, you just black out, and you don't come back. That has me terrified.
I'm an atheist, so I don't believe in an afterlife and I also don't believe in paranormal activity. Also, belief is the wrong word here. This is not a faith based discussion, there is no theology in this, only science. Science is generally regarded as fact until proven wrong. The great thing about science is that it actually looks for ways to prove itself wrong, and will gladly accept new theories over old ones if sound. The other thing we will cover really quick is that theories are considered fact until proven wrong, but are not considered law. Hypothesis are how theories start, they are based on facts but aren't tested vigorously.
What founds my way of thinking is scientific nature and facts. I am happy to prove myself wrong, but if there are no facts to support something, then I consider it false and inconsequential.
This discussion takes into consideration there is no afterlife. Whatever you may believe outside of science is considered faith and theology, so it doesn't apply. There is no room for ifs, buts, or an afterlife is fact because of what a particular faith dictates.
On to the topic.
In many fictional stories, authors think of ways to cheat death. Some examples are cloning and uploading a digitized mind into the brain. This sounds like a good solution, and one that is probably possible within the next 50 years. However, lets look at this situation closer. If I make a clone of myself and upload my mind into it, it still isn't me. In most pop culture, this method is used to get around dying. Let me explain why this doesn't work.
Lifeform A (Me) and Lifeform B (Clone)
We see there are two lifeforms. Lets say for the sake of morality, Lifeform B is just a body with no "soul," for lack of a better term.
Step 1 requires we have a back up copy of our mind. Lets say this is possible and we can make an exact duplicate for the sake of demonstration.
Step 2 requires we upload said mind into the soulless body.
Step 3 requires the body awakens with your mind intact and functioning 100%.
We've cheated death.
However, lets look again.
Lifeform A (Me) and Lifeform B (Clone)
We have a problem here.
I'm still alive, yet I have a duplicate of myself now. It walks, it talks, it has my memories. However, it may not behave 100% like me and might not make the same exact situation I would if we were in the same situation together. Also, look at what I just wrote. We. Its not me, since I am still Lifeform A. This does nothing to extend my life and my existence, only that I've made an exact replica with my memories. The replica, depending on it's age vs mine, will live until it dies and meets oblivion like all other life. So, what happens now? Do we exterminate Lifeform A? If so, that means I die. The whole point of going through all this is to NOT die, so we have failed good sirs and madams!
This is never taken into consideration in immortality theories. This is not an option.
Howeve, allow me to modify this situation a little. Lets change it so that Lifeform B is an exact replica of my body, except the spinal cord and brain have been removed or not grown when the body was. Lets say surgical procedures in the future are so advanced we can do brain transplants. I could then transplant my brain into the new body grown for me.
Lifeform A (just my shell) and Lifeform B (Me in a new body)
This could work. But we must take into consideration brain diseases such as Alzheimer's and the fact all our bodies cells reproduce slower and slower each cell generation. How long will my brain last? My brain is what houses my existence. It must remain in tact, or else my consciousness dies and my recognition of my existence along with it. If I can't recognize my own existence, I no longer exist. The brain will degenerate faster than the body in this situation. We could keep a back up of my mind, but then an upload would erase me and it would be my backup, not me.
It would visually look like this:
Lifeform B (Me) and Lifeform B (Backup of my mind)
This would be two lifeforms, but with the same body. This is a failure, as my existence has been overwritten with another copy of myself. This situation fails as well.
Next situation:
Lifeform A (Me) and Digitized Mind (My backup)
We make exact replicas of our minds digitally and exist in cyberspace. However, once the mind is copied, the original mind will still exist. Already this is a failure, and not an option.
Another situation:
Cryogenic freezing. This is not possible with today's technology. We can preserve humans with cryonics, however, they can't be unfrozen. Lets say we advance cryonics so we may unfreeze humans. Someone could be put into a cryonic state for centuries. However, lack of brain activity isn't really existing since your consciousness is out of operation. You do not realize you exist, until unfrozen and brought back. Then, you will die as you normally would if you choose to live outside of your cryonic state. What would be the purpose? Fail.
Next:
Cybernetic augmentation. Parts of the body are machine, parts aren't. Again, the biological parts would fail over time because of cell's progeny's lifespans. The mechanical parts would need regular maintenance and who really wants to put up with glitchy body parts? Still, your lifespan could be increased a ten fold if it had parts that would not fail because of cellular degeneration. However, there is a reason our bodies are made from cells and not elements such as steel or aluminum. There is a reason our bones are porous and have marrow, it all works together for a reason. Failure!
Next:
Nanotechnology. I think this would be the most likely scenario. Having little nanobots coursing through your body and repairing parts of the body as they start to have cellular degeneration. Of course, how this is possible, I do not know, since when the cell multiplies it's off spring has a shorter lifespan, hence our aging. I don't think nanotechnology would have the capability of regenerating dying cells. Is this an option? Possibly, but then possibly not. This seems like another failure.
Last thing I'll touch on:
http://
Cancer cells will replicate indefinitely. Our cells lose a little bit of telomere every time. Cancer cells don't. However, cancer cells will continue to replicate and cause problems. If a median could be found... our cells would replicate indefinitely. We would achieve immortality.
Some thoughts:
I chose the first situation to elaborate since it seems like the most likely scenario that would happen. A clone, and then a mind transfer. It also seems to be the most popular sci-fi method in pop culture. However, as I sketched out, it just won't work. We will die and our progeny, the clone, will live on, possibly at the cost of our very lives. Absolutely not an option.
Mechanical methods would not work simply because we would need our organic brains, which deteriorate over time.
The most scientific and realistic method would most likely be the last. Our aging is the cause of us dying, all accidents and unfortunates aside. This would be the most logical place to start. What makes us die? We know it is our cells dividing.
I think about this stuff usually when discussions about after life or religion pop up, and the internet is filled with it almost anywhere you look. I don't want to die, I don't want my existence to end. That is the purpose of life, all forms of life strife to continue on. Except, I don't want to continue on my species, but myself instead. The thought of dying has me freaked out. I once passed out for a few minutes and didn't even know it. For that duration of time, I didn't know I existed. I just knew that I blacked out and came to at some point later. In death, you just black out, and you don't come back. That has me terrified.
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コメント(8)
I think people want the "illusion" of immortality, more than they want immortality itself.
I don't think it serves the purpose of evolution, to forever evolve in the same body.
Some animals, like tortoises, can live for more than 100 years. but at some point, even they eventually breed life, and die.
If evolution felt that immortality was necessary, then at least some animals would live forever.
There comes a point when it is impossible for us to continue to evolve in the same body. even if we lived for 1000 years, we would still have the same physical/mental limitations as we did when we were born. It would become a deeply frustrating experience, unless you really loved yourself so much, that you praised every day the fact that you are still alive. I don't think many people are capable of that. We change so much in just 5 years. If we lived 1000, we would change so much, that our identity would have disappeared. Maybe we would have gone crazy, unless we had a strong sense of discipline.
As for cloning yourself, I think genetic copies are the exception in nature, and not the norm.
Some species of sexless snails and seahorses, because they don't need to have sex to reproduce themselves, simply generate copies of themselves. But even these creatures, it's debatable if they are living the same "lives" as their predecessors. Even here, there is novelty.
But I have to admit I am interested in scientific studies of immortality, and if new scientific measures exist that can extend a human's life, I will certainly look at it with some interest.
I don't think it serves the purpose of evolution, to forever evolve in the same body.
Some animals, like tortoises, can live for more than 100 years. but at some point, even they eventually breed life, and die.
If evolution felt that immortality was necessary, then at least some animals would live forever.
There comes a point when it is impossible for us to continue to evolve in the same body. even if we lived for 1000 years, we would still have the same physical/mental limitations as we did when we were born. It would become a deeply frustrating experience, unless you really loved yourself so much, that you praised every day the fact that you are still alive. I don't think many people are capable of that. We change so much in just 5 years. If we lived 1000, we would change so much, that our identity would have disappeared. Maybe we would have gone crazy, unless we had a strong sense of discipline.
As for cloning yourself, I think genetic copies are the exception in nature, and not the norm.
Some species of sexless snails and seahorses, because they don't need to have sex to reproduce themselves, simply generate copies of themselves. But even these creatures, it's debatable if they are living the same "lives" as their predecessors. Even here, there is novelty.
But I have to admit I am interested in scientific studies of immortality, and if new scientific measures exist that can extend a human's life, I will certainly look at it with some interest.
It's a difficult subject because first of you have to decide what is life.
The things you talk about are plausabile in a science fiction futuristing type of way, but as said, are they truely living forever?
The only way that could be truely considered living forever is if you remain in your body and you dont need to do any type of brain transplant or something into a fresh body. They are more like "cheating death".
The things you talk about are plausabile in a science fiction futuristing type of way, but as said, are they truely living forever?
The only way that could be truely considered living forever is if you remain in your body and you dont need to do any type of brain transplant or something into a fresh body. They are more like "cheating death".
you are looking at methods to cheat the death of your body, but in the end the mind can not comprehend it yet. The mind needs to evolve to comprehend eternal life.
The cloning technique is an interesting discussion, I think of it a lot, but in the end it is more philosophical at this point I think.
Living forever in a manner we would want, requires a slow expanse of our life-span, probably by slowing down the aging. If you stop the aging effects, maybe we are fit for eternal life, but who knows? I reckon suicide rates will be high :3
The cloning technique is an interesting discussion, I think of it a lot, but in the end it is more philosophical at this point I think.
Living forever in a manner we would want, requires a slow expanse of our life-span, probably by slowing down the aging. If you stop the aging effects, maybe we are fit for eternal life, but who knows? I reckon suicide rates will be high :3
>Hiroki,
I'm not proving anything. I just said for the sake of the topic, there are no souls. Doesn't matter what you believe, you have to look at the situation as you do not have a soul. In these situations souls are not part of the equation.
>bebio
You know, it would be really interesting to see how much a lifeform would change if it lived to about 500 years or so. It is possible it would change over that length of time. If someone could live forever, I really doubt their body would stay exactly the same. It would change with whatever experience it has. For example, if I don't work out, I get small muscle structure. That happens in a year or so, but if I work out a lot my muscles will increase in mass. That isn't drastic change, but changes would come small at first. If the sun blocked out all light, our eyes would have to adapt and change to see in the dark.
I think plenty of people could stay sane if their bodies did not age. Their brains wouldn't deteriorate. The only thing that would happen is we would forget older things as we make space for new memories.
>Ｊ美ー
I agree. Only way you could live forever is to stay in the same body with the same brain, or get a new body with a brain transplant. Otherwise, you just won't be existing.
>Miszou
I'm pretty sure the only way we could live forever, or at least a very long time, would be to change the way our cells divide. By doing so, we'd essentially halt aging.
If a few individuals lived forever, that would be one thing. A few of us not aging wouldn't have a huge impact in society. It is pretty easy to blend in and not be noticed. If society did it, then we would have population control regulations and even possibly death schedules, to schedule the death of people so that new people may be born.
There are pros and cons to living forever.
Anyway, one benefit would be to see how much we change. If you could live forever, you'd be able to see all of our progress. You could gain an incomprehensible amount of knowledge.
I'm not proving anything. I just said for the sake of the topic, there are no souls. Doesn't matter what you believe, you have to look at the situation as you do not have a soul. In these situations souls are not part of the equation.
>bebio
You know, it would be really interesting to see how much a lifeform would change if it lived to about 500 years or so. It is possible it would change over that length of time. If someone could live forever, I really doubt their body would stay exactly the same. It would change with whatever experience it has. For example, if I don't work out, I get small muscle structure. That happens in a year or so, but if I work out a lot my muscles will increase in mass. That isn't drastic change, but changes would come small at first. If the sun blocked out all light, our eyes would have to adapt and change to see in the dark.
I think plenty of people could stay sane if their bodies did not age. Their brains wouldn't deteriorate. The only thing that would happen is we would forget older things as we make space for new memories.
>Ｊ美ー
I agree. Only way you could live forever is to stay in the same body with the same brain, or get a new body with a brain transplant. Otherwise, you just won't be existing.
>Miszou
I'm pretty sure the only way we could live forever, or at least a very long time, would be to change the way our cells divide. By doing so, we'd essentially halt aging.
If a few individuals lived forever, that would be one thing. A few of us not aging wouldn't have a huge impact in society. It is pretty easy to blend in and not be noticed. If society did it, then we would have population control regulations and even possibly death schedules, to schedule the death of people so that new people may be born.
There are pros and cons to living forever.
Anyway, one benefit would be to see how much we change. If you could live forever, you'd be able to see all of our progress. You could gain an incomprehensible amount of knowledge.
It's a nice Sci-Fi episode, but we are not even close to pulling this off. The technique that would allow you to live forever hasn't even been scratched, and it's most certainly incomprehensible given our limited knowledge. The beer can in my fridge will explode just thinking about it.
Trying to apply current science to this thread is like having a neurological surgery discussion with cave paintings.
One thing is for sure, in this life we (humans) are a lot better of destroying things quicker than we are at replacing or conserving them. Ourselves included.
Look at the last 60 years. The technology, the beliefs, the devastation, the population, the everything......we're scientific infants.
Eternal life as we imagine it, by any theory or creative situation will never happen.
Death seriously freaked me out too. I was so bad I couldn't keep my balance laying down, literally! .....sooo scared.
I had my days of thinking, "well, by the time I hit ** years old, they'll have something to fix me up!"
It took this thinking just to get me to open my eyes in the morning, that little ray of hope.
Nope.
Lucky for you though, you're just a dream......and as a dream you'll live forever.
Naaaaah, I'm playing!
Well, not really
the above is true....but life is fun the way it is.
I study Iaijutsu also. It's pretty important not to fear death.
There's a good Japanese story associated with this fear. I forgot the name, and I'm not at home to look it up.
Nobody slam me for getting it too mixed, the story line is there
****enter the really chopped up, "I'm at work" version***
It involves a feared and powerful swordsman looking for people to join him. Everyone who looked at him or rubbed him the wrong way feared for their life.
He was looking to recruit samurai.
When they lined up, he walked down the row and they all bowed in fear. One man continued to make eye contact.
When the powerful swordsman said this is the man for me, someone inquired, "why him, his skill is mediocre compared to the rest". The swordsman stated that he knew this samurai was truly not afraid of death.
When asked how he trained to not be afraid, the chosen samurai replied, "I sleep with an unsheathed sword tied above my head dangling on a thin string every night."
He didn't imagine a scenario of death for training like the others, he put himself in deaths way every night to accept it should it happen to him.
Live on
Now that my mind is done racing, I really need to get back to work!
Trying to apply current science to this thread is like having a neurological surgery discussion with cave paintings.
One thing is for sure, in this life we (humans) are a lot better of destroying things quicker than we are at replacing or conserving them. Ourselves included.
Look at the last 60 years. The technology, the beliefs, the devastation, the population, the everything......we're scientific infants.
Eternal life as we imagine it, by any theory or creative situation will never happen.
Death seriously freaked me out too. I was so bad I couldn't keep my balance laying down, literally! .....sooo scared.
I had my days of thinking, "well, by the time I hit ** years old, they'll have something to fix me up!"
It took this thinking just to get me to open my eyes in the morning, that little ray of hope.
Nope.
Lucky for you though, you're just a dream......and as a dream you'll live forever.
Naaaaah, I'm playing!
Well, not really
the above is true....but life is fun the way it is.
I study Iaijutsu also. It's pretty important not to fear death.
There's a good Japanese story associated with this fear. I forgot the name, and I'm not at home to look it up.
Nobody slam me for getting it too mixed, the story line is there
****enter the really chopped up, "I'm at work" version***
It involves a feared and powerful swordsman looking for people to join him. Everyone who looked at him or rubbed him the wrong way feared for their life.
He was looking to recruit samurai.
When they lined up, he walked down the row and they all bowed in fear. One man continued to make eye contact.
When the powerful swordsman said this is the man for me, someone inquired, "why him, his skill is mediocre compared to the rest". The swordsman stated that he knew this samurai was truly not afraid of death.
When asked how he trained to not be afraid, the chosen samurai replied, "I sleep with an unsheathed sword tied above my head dangling on a thin string every night."
He didn't imagine a scenario of death for training like the others, he put himself in deaths way every night to accept it should it happen to him.
Live on
Now that my mind is done racing, I really need to get back to work!
I don't want to live forever, not on "earth" anyway because I think eventually life would get very boring, forever is....forever.
It is an interesting topic and who knows at some point in the future science or doctors may be able to change what happens to our natural aging, but I think it is safe to say by the time they get anywhere close to it being "mainstream" ( if ever ) we will be long gone anyway.
The two biggest hurdles we would need to get over would be keeping someones body in top physical condition, that alone could/will take a VERY long time, next we have the issue of people going senile or just losing their memory so that also would be a major problem.
Let's say for example, I dunno....science was able to slow down peoples aging process but not their brain, we would have ( as a stretch ) maybe 200-300 year old crazy old buggers wandering around. We would have to perfect things so that neither the mind or body age anymore.
Personally I am not scared of death ( although I would not want to have a prolonged agony when dying ), it is simply part of life....everyone dies and there is no real need to worry about it in my mind, we had no choice of being born nor do we have one when we die, it happens. I think it is better to accept that and just live our lives one day at a time like each one could be our last.
It is an interesting topic and who knows at some point in the future science or doctors may be able to change what happens to our natural aging, but I think it is safe to say by the time they get anywhere close to it being "mainstream" ( if ever ) we will be long gone anyway.
The two biggest hurdles we would need to get over would be keeping someones body in top physical condition, that alone could/will take a VERY long time, next we have the issue of people going senile or just losing their memory so that also would be a major problem.
Let's say for example, I dunno....science was able to slow down peoples aging process but not their brain, we would have ( as a stretch ) maybe 200-300 year old crazy old buggers wandering around. We would have to perfect things so that neither the mind or body age anymore.
Personally I am not scared of death ( although I would not want to have a prolonged agony when dying ), it is simply part of life....everyone dies and there is no real need to worry about it in my mind, we had no choice of being born nor do we have one when we die, it happens. I think it is better to accept that and just live our lives one day at a time like each one could be our last.
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