I have a question to ask about Japanese language. I know this is not a language community, but I would appreciate your advice all the same.
I am a University student. In the same class as me, there is a Japanese female. She is 5 years older than me, but in the same year at University.
We sometimes speak to each other in a mix of English and Japanese. Her English is not perfect, but it is very friendly and so I spoke to her in Japanese as though she was also my friend. She has in the past called me 'karen-chan' which I thought was a sign of friendliness.
I recently recieved an email from this woman saying that she is extremeley worried about my Japanese. She says I should not go to Japan to work as I do not know how to speak Japanese. She said I am repeatedly rude to her as I speak to her in a 'chummy' manner, but she is older than me and I should show her more respect. I understand that she is older than me, but I didnt consider her to be my senior. We are at the same level at University, in the same class doing the same things. I didnt think I had to speak 'up' to her. Maybe this is my mistake.
I have friends in Japan who are older than me and they never said I was rude to them when I spoke to them. I am worried I have been unknowingly being rude to people.
I understand the politeness levels in Japan. I would never speak to my boss in the same way I do my friends. I understand that sometimes you have to use polite language even to friends. It all depends on the situation. I judge the situation using my Western brain. She says this is not good enough.
My question is: is she right? Even though she is the same academic level etc as me, should I have spoken up to her purely because she is older than me, even if she treated me as a friend in the past?
I am a University student. In the same class as me, there is a Japanese female. She is 5 years older than me, but in the same year at University.
We sometimes speak to each other in a mix of English and Japanese. Her English is not perfect, but it is very friendly and so I spoke to her in Japanese as though she was also my friend. She has in the past called me 'karen-chan' which I thought was a sign of friendliness.
I recently recieved an email from this woman saying that she is extremeley worried about my Japanese. She says I should not go to Japan to work as I do not know how to speak Japanese. She said I am repeatedly rude to her as I speak to her in a 'chummy' manner, but she is older than me and I should show her more respect. I understand that she is older than me, but I didnt consider her to be my senior. We are at the same level at University, in the same class doing the same things. I didnt think I had to speak 'up' to her. Maybe this is my mistake.
I have friends in Japan who are older than me and they never said I was rude to them when I spoke to them. I am worried I have been unknowingly being rude to people.
I understand the politeness levels in Japan. I would never speak to my boss in the same way I do my friends. I understand that sometimes you have to use polite language even to friends. It all depends on the situation. I judge the situation using my Western brain. She says this is not good enough.
My question is: is she right? Even though she is the same academic level etc as me, should I have spoken up to her purely because she is older than me, even if she treated me as a friend in the past?
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コメント(31)
hmmmm, that older than who thing is really a something to us japanese because we've been taught to be like that especially in school.
well, some people dont even care about this stuff if you are friends, like your friends in japan and i dont care either cos it makes the level, why do i wanna be higher than my friends? i dont wanna be treated like im the senior. but quite a few people do.
here's a solution and this is what most people do.
just use the polite words to anybody who is older than you. if they dont feel too good about that, they will tell you to not talk like that.
this is really a trouble about japanese huh? im get sick of this thing sometimes but oh well im a piece of japanese i got to live with it.
but if you come to japan, dont worry, you get used to it.
well, some people dont even care about this stuff if you are friends, like your friends in japan and i dont care either cos it makes the level, why do i wanna be higher than my friends? i dont wanna be treated like im the senior. but quite a few people do.
here's a solution and this is what most people do.
just use the polite words to anybody who is older than you. if they dont feel too good about that, they will tell you to not talk like that.
this is really a trouble about japanese huh? im get sick of this thing sometimes but oh well im a piece of japanese i got to live with it.
but if you come to japan, dont worry, you get used to it.
Certain respect even between close friendz is I think what she expectz from you.
Even if you think you've been polite to her, to her it may in some way have been not so as polite as she expected it to be. It is so cuz you are in Japan. You know it. So she is and if you reflect you in some way had been rude to her, maybe you can change your visible attitude and all, I don't know.
But I disagree to her unfriendly adivise saying you should not go to Japan. Yes you can certainly go to Japan to do whatever you like to do even if your Japanese is not good enough.
Believe you me.
There are lotz of people going to Japan to work and as long as Indians learing Japanese are concerned, cuz I'm living in India, some of them speak Japanese miserably FUNNY and grammatically BAD. But the best thing is they don't know their Japanese is bad, instead are rather overconfident over thier skill of Japanese.
So I think itz been rude for her part to say that you shouldn't go there just cuz of your Japanese speaking level is not satisfactory.
Nobody cares if you speak bad there cuz you are from abroad and they will be casual in dealing with you.
Don't know when she said that to you but just now I looked your profile and you speak and write Japanese really well. Skilled I must say!
Seriously. Better than I do I'm just forgetting my language, especially on kanji hehehe.
So she is partly right to have said to you to show more respect in tongue as well as in attitude, and I believe you are right in believing that you have not been so rude to her as you might think you have been.
I would say you just continue behaving to her in much the same way you have been with a little bit of cation on sensible wordz and attitude.
I'm sorry if all this I prattle makes no sense to what you might expect.
I am glad if it getz you some new better thought. Bye cha
Even if you think you've been polite to her, to her it may in some way have been not so as polite as she expected it to be. It is so cuz you are in Japan. You know it. So she is and if you reflect you in some way had been rude to her, maybe you can change your visible attitude and all, I don't know.
But I disagree to her unfriendly adivise saying you should not go to Japan. Yes you can certainly go to Japan to do whatever you like to do even if your Japanese is not good enough.
Believe you me.
There are lotz of people going to Japan to work and as long as Indians learing Japanese are concerned, cuz I'm living in India, some of them speak Japanese miserably FUNNY and grammatically BAD. But the best thing is they don't know their Japanese is bad, instead are rather overconfident over thier skill of Japanese.
So I think itz been rude for her part to say that you shouldn't go there just cuz of your Japanese speaking level is not satisfactory.
Nobody cares if you speak bad there cuz you are from abroad and they will be casual in dealing with you.
Don't know when she said that to you but just now I looked your profile and you speak and write Japanese really well. Skilled I must say!
Seriously. Better than I do I'm just forgetting my language, especially on kanji hehehe.
So she is partly right to have said to you to show more respect in tongue as well as in attitude, and I believe you are right in believing that you have not been so rude to her as you might think you have been.
I would say you just continue behaving to her in much the same way you have been with a little bit of cation on sensible wordz and attitude.
I'm sorry if all this I prattle makes no sense to what you might expect.
I am glad if it getz you some new better thought. Bye cha
She is only 5 years older than me - if she was 60 years old, I would speak to her with more respect, but 5 years? Where do you draw the line? If she was born 6 months before me should I suddenly treat her as my senior?
If she was in the year above me at uni i would speak to her with more respect. But she isnt. She is not my senpai.
She spoke to me in casual friendly Japanese. I know this does not mean I can do the same.
I am younger than her. But the email she sent to me in Japanese showed me no respect. Respect is a two-way thing. In England we have a thing called tact. I thought Japan did too.
Age is not everything.
If she was in the year above me at uni i would speak to her with more respect. But she isnt. She is not my senpai.
She spoke to me in casual friendly Japanese. I know this does not mean I can do the same.
I am younger than her. But the email she sent to me in Japanese showed me no respect. Respect is a two-way thing. In England we have a thing called tact. I thought Japan did too.
Age is not everything.
You said that you are the same academic level of your Univ as that of her.
I completely agree with you ! I am of the opinion that both of you and her are at the same grade of your Univ, so Both of you two are equal!!
There are many situations where older and younger people are at the same position!!
And I surely think that because she is 5 years older than you, you may
show some respect to her as an older! Is that right??
You are really friend with her?? not just as classmate?
But when you talk to her, thought I don't know how you use Japanese, do you use proper words in Japanese?
I hope that you use proper words toward her!!
I think that what Japanese ofetn see ages as so highly important is one of the worst Japanese cultures!!
I would like to apologize it insted of her as representitive Japanese!!
I completely agree with you ! I am of the opinion that both of you and her are at the same grade of your Univ, so Both of you two are equal!!
There are many situations where older and younger people are at the same position!!
And I surely think that because she is 5 years older than you, you may
show some respect to her as an older! Is that right??
You are really friend with her?? not just as classmate?
But when you talk to her, thought I don't know how you use Japanese, do you use proper words in Japanese?
I hope that you use proper words toward her!!
I think that what Japanese ofetn see ages as so highly important is one of the worst Japanese cultures!!
I would like to apologize it insted of her as representitive Japanese!!
I think many Japanese don't expect a foreigner to speak "perfect Japanese" or to know the complex differences of formal and casual speech, so they tend to let these kinds of mistakes slide by unnoticed to the foreigner. From my experience, a Japanese person (especially one you've just met) would be WAY to reserved to tell you directly of such a mistake or to even let you know at all that they feel uncomfortable, so I think its good she decided to inform you. When in doubt, always use polite speech. lol, thats my logic.
I had three years older friend in my class when I was in university, but never have I used 'keigo' to him. Neither did other classmates.
I think in Japanese universities, what matters is the year of entrance, not your actual age.
What the woman in question tells you, sounds very strange to me.
I think in Japanese universities, what matters is the year of entrance, not your actual age.
What the woman in question tells you, sounds very strange to me.
>>Angelic Feline
So, I think that you don't need to use 'keigo'to your classmate , because you all are at the same classmates!!
You may find strange to learn that, there are actually some Japanese people who put ages as an importance!!
what matters is the year of entrance, not your actual age.
I also think that what matters is the year of entrance, not your actual age!!
So, I think that you don't need to use 'keigo'to your classmate , because you all are at the same classmates!!
You may find strange to learn that, there are actually some Japanese people who put ages as an importance!!
what matters is the year of entrance, not your actual age.
I also think that what matters is the year of entrance, not your actual age!!
subtleties in the level of politeness in a language can't be acquired over night. Even some young Japanese don't know how to speak properly, either. I don't think i know for that matter. The important thing is your heart when you speak any language, isn't it? No Japanese expects a foreigner speaking perfect Japanese. If you do, you are a strange foreigner. Don't worry too much and jump in. 
I agree with アンディー.
Keigo is one of the most difficult parts in Japanese language, even to us. I think few Japanese people are confident of using them perfectly.
So I suggest not to worry too much and think it simply. Speak politely to anyone (except to your close friends).
But I understand why your friend said so. In business, using word correctly and politely is very important sometimes. Probably your friend worried about it. You have a good friend.
But I think your friend doesn't know actual job. If you come to Japan to work, the company who hires you would simply expect your expertise and not your perfect Japanese skill. They would let Japanese do the job particularly needs language skill and would let you do the job which needs your knowledge and English skill. It's reasonable isn't it?
So I don't think you need to worry too much about it.
Keigo is one of the most difficult parts in Japanese language, even to us. I think few Japanese people are confident of using them perfectly.
So I suggest not to worry too much and think it simply. Speak politely to anyone (except to your close friends).
But I understand why your friend said so. In business, using word correctly and politely is very important sometimes. Probably your friend worried about it. You have a good friend.
But I think your friend doesn't know actual job. If you come to Japan to work, the company who hires you would simply expect your expertise and not your perfect Japanese skill. They would let Japanese do the job particularly needs language skill and would let you do the job which needs your knowledge and English skill. It's reasonable isn't it?
So I don't think you need to worry too much about it.
カレコラ＞ Hello
Your friend sounds like a bit of a schitzo.
As far as the age thing goes, of-course people markedly older than you are automatically your "senpai" whatever the social context...if you are Japanese that is - I think you should point out to your friend that although you speak Japanese you are not Japanese, and the Japanese culture and Japanese language are only one and the same in Japan (and perhaps only if you are Japanese).
However I think even being in the same class doesn't exempt some form of "senpai" and "kohei" socialization. Think about high-school students - the same age, the same entrance year, but they still have a pecking order...and that's not just Japan, I bet everyone on here had a head boy or girl in their class, be it the bully, the rich kids, whatever.
Regardless, if your friend is one moment all coke and smiles and then "you can't speak Japanese!" the next, then it sounds she's a bit schitzo....
On the other hand, she might be giving you some tough-love type advice if you want to work in a Japanese speaking office.
Not sure, you'll have to judge that one I guess.
"I have friends in Japan who are older than me and they never said I was rude to them"
Perhaps, exactly because they are friends (and Japanese), they are not giving you the full story on just how good your Japanese is (I don't wish to discourage or say anything about your ability in anyway)...
In a work context there is no room for polite tolerance of mistaken Japanese. Especially if you want to work a so called "eigyou" position. If you mis-speak once, just once, and the Boss hears about it, that is that.
No-one needs an "eigyou" person who can't even be polite to clients.
It must be more severe if you are female, I'm sure.
"I understand the politeness levels in Japan"
I'm sure there are a lot of people on here that have been here longer than me, but in the near 8 years I've lived here I don't think I'd be able to make that statement with full confidence - I'm sure you mean that you know and acknowledge that there is a social pecking order in Japan and there are certain language issues that go with them....but I think a good way to approach it is take what you know about "politeness levels in Japan" and assume that that is only 10% of the total package and you'll be close to where you really are perhaps.
This includes me too by the way.
Your language is only the tip of the iceberg...
Do you know where you have to sit in a taxi if going out with a client? With a client and your Boss? With a client, your Boss, and a coworker? etc
How about where to stand in an elevator in the above situations?
I could go on, but suffice to say there is a polite way to do anything in Japan.
And if you are going to do it in a Business situation, better do it right. Like thingio said "there is no 'try'"...
Best way to negotiate all this is just ***don't play the game***
Your friend sounds like a bit of a schitzo.
As far as the age thing goes, of-course people markedly older than you are automatically your "senpai" whatever the social context...if you are Japanese that is - I think you should point out to your friend that although you speak Japanese you are not Japanese, and the Japanese culture and Japanese language are only one and the same in Japan (and perhaps only if you are Japanese).
However I think even being in the same class doesn't exempt some form of "senpai" and "kohei" socialization. Think about high-school students - the same age, the same entrance year, but they still have a pecking order...and that's not just Japan, I bet everyone on here had a head boy or girl in their class, be it the bully, the rich kids, whatever.
Regardless, if your friend is one moment all coke and smiles and then "you can't speak Japanese!" the next, then it sounds she's a bit schitzo....
On the other hand, she might be giving you some tough-love type advice if you want to work in a Japanese speaking office.
Not sure, you'll have to judge that one I guess.
"I have friends in Japan who are older than me and they never said I was rude to them"
Perhaps, exactly because they are friends (and Japanese), they are not giving you the full story on just how good your Japanese is (I don't wish to discourage or say anything about your ability in anyway)...
In a work context there is no room for polite tolerance of mistaken Japanese. Especially if you want to work a so called "eigyou" position. If you mis-speak once, just once, and the Boss hears about it, that is that.
No-one needs an "eigyou" person who can't even be polite to clients.
It must be more severe if you are female, I'm sure.
"I understand the politeness levels in Japan"
I'm sure there are a lot of people on here that have been here longer than me, but in the near 8 years I've lived here I don't think I'd be able to make that statement with full confidence - I'm sure you mean that you know and acknowledge that there is a social pecking order in Japan and there are certain language issues that go with them....but I think a good way to approach it is take what you know about "politeness levels in Japan" and assume that that is only 10% of the total package and you'll be close to where you really are perhaps.
This includes me too by the way.
Your language is only the tip of the iceberg...
Do you know where you have to sit in a taxi if going out with a client? With a client and your Boss? With a client, your Boss, and a coworker? etc
How about where to stand in an elevator in the above situations?
I could go on, but suffice to say there is a polite way to do anything in Japan.
And if you are going to do it in a Business situation, better do it right. Like thingio said "there is no 'try'"...
Best way to negotiate all this is just ***don't play the game***
You are a Westerner, you know that, they know that - why try to be "Japanese" and mimic what a Japanese person should do in a given situation when chances for mistakes are very high, and further more everyone knows it's a charade anyway?
Speak your Japanese at a respectful level (text book "desu" and "masu" etc) and go with what is polite in your culture, and make it clear you are doing so. No-one can argue or be insulted by that. I think any adult, especially a decent business person can respect this conduct.
Leave the keigo alone unless you have a total grasp on it, and also are acutely aware of Japanese social customs for polite behaviour too - otherwise you'll end up being more rude than if you'd just spoken text book Japanese and gone with your native version of "polite".
In meetings at work, I've seen a couple "hot-shot" type foreigners try to do the "I'm Japanese!" thing and end up in 6s and 7s and an angry Boss to answer to. The most typical thing being starting a conversation with a guest in ridiculously polite Japanese (the set greeting phrase they might know to show off) and the guest replies in super-polite form, or extends the conversation in the super polite form and the foreign guy can't keep up and ends up fishing for words, mangling up keigo, or just plain fumbling out words in "tamego"...
99% of "polite" is just appearances. And in a business context "matomo" (got it together) is v.important.
If you are mumbling our words that you can't pronounce correctly (ever heard a foreigner pull off "gobusatashiteorimasu" smoothly?) going in and out of keigo and text book Japanese (they hate these changes, especially in writing) calling your client "sama" when "san" was fine, but greeting them with "konnichiwa" when you should be saying "osewaninatteorimasu", although you might be trying you don't look "matomo" because you couldn't cash the check your ambition wrote....
Remember a lot of Japanese people have trouble speaking decent (proper service industry level) "keigo", so that's a yardstick for anytime you a hear a foreigner claim that they can. And probably a pretty persuasive reason just to leave it alone - or leave it to the posers.
Some "Meri-hari" is probably the best attitude to have.
Speak your Japanese at a respectful level (text book "desu" and "masu" etc) and go with what is polite in your culture, and make it clear you are doing so. No-one can argue or be insulted by that. I think any adult, especially a decent business person can respect this conduct.
Leave the keigo alone unless you have a total grasp on it, and also are acutely aware of Japanese social customs for polite behaviour too - otherwise you'll end up being more rude than if you'd just spoken text book Japanese and gone with your native version of "polite".
In meetings at work, I've seen a couple "hot-shot" type foreigners try to do the "I'm Japanese!" thing and end up in 6s and 7s and an angry Boss to answer to. The most typical thing being starting a conversation with a guest in ridiculously polite Japanese (the set greeting phrase they might know to show off) and the guest replies in super-polite form, or extends the conversation in the super polite form and the foreign guy can't keep up and ends up fishing for words, mangling up keigo, or just plain fumbling out words in "tamego"...
99% of "polite" is just appearances. And in a business context "matomo" (got it together) is v.important.
If you are mumbling our words that you can't pronounce correctly (ever heard a foreigner pull off "gobusatashiteorimasu" smoothly?) going in and out of keigo and text book Japanese (they hate these changes, especially in writing) calling your client "sama" when "san" was fine, but greeting them with "konnichiwa" when you should be saying "osewaninatteorimasu", although you might be trying you don't look "matomo" because you couldn't cash the check your ambition wrote....
Remember a lot of Japanese people have trouble speaking decent (proper service industry level) "keigo", so that's a yardstick for anytime you a hear a foreigner claim that they can. And probably a pretty persuasive reason just to leave it alone - or leave it to the posers.
Some "Meri-hari" is probably the best attitude to have.
....san,
I am not fluent in Japanese. I never said I was. I make mistakes. But unless I make those mistakes I cannot learn. I do know of and understand to some extent politeness levels in Japanese. If I am unsure, I always, always use polite Japanese. To friends, I use casual Japanese. If I speak to them in the 'masu' form, sometimes they even correct me and tell me not to with them. They are my friends, but they have also told me some hurtful truths too.
I do not know what job you do.
I want to be a designer in Japan. This year I met various other foreign designers working in Japan. They all said to me one thing:
A japanese company will not employ me for your level of Japanese. They will employ you for your western-ness, to make their company look international, or for your great level of design. if they want a japanese speaker, they will employ a japanese person. The job I will do in Japan will not be overly business orientated. I am not a business woman, I am a designer.
Out of the 15 or so companies I met, 11 people said this to me, unasked for.
I am not fluent in Japanese. I never said I was. I make mistakes. But unless I make those mistakes I cannot learn. I do know of and understand to some extent politeness levels in Japanese. If I am unsure, I always, always use polite Japanese. To friends, I use casual Japanese. If I speak to them in the 'masu' form, sometimes they even correct me and tell me not to with them. They are my friends, but they have also told me some hurtful truths too.
I do not know what job you do.
I want to be a designer in Japan. This year I met various other foreign designers working in Japan. They all said to me one thing:
A japanese company will not employ me for your level of Japanese. They will employ you for your western-ness, to make their company look international, or for your great level of design. if they want a japanese speaker, they will employ a japanese person. The job I will do in Japan will not be overly business orientated. I am not a business woman, I am a designer.
Out of the 15 or so companies I met, 11 people said this to me, unasked for.
I have a lot of friends younger than me in my office and the out of the office. But they never use 'keigo' to me, and I never expected it from them.
Also, I have some friends older than me, and we have very good relationship between us, I never use 'keigo' to them, though.
However, it's true that there is someone who really cares (almost obsesses) about politeness especially using 'keigo.'
I guess your friend is a just like that kind of person, but I don't think person who thinks like she does is not so many even in Japan especially among young generation.
As for me, if my younger friends use 'keigo' to me, I feel we have a distance between my friends and me, and feel lonely.
So, once I become a friend with someone, I wont s/he to use casual language to me no matter how old s/he is.
Anyway, it really depends on a person. Don't warry! Japanese people aren't as petty-minded as it may seem.:)
Also, I have some friends older than me, and we have very good relationship between us, I never use 'keigo' to them, though.
However, it's true that there is someone who really cares (almost obsesses) about politeness especially using 'keigo.'
I guess your friend is a just like that kind of person, but I don't think person who thinks like she does is not so many even in Japan especially among young generation.
As for me, if my younger friends use 'keigo' to me, I feel we have a distance between my friends and me, and feel lonely.
So, once I become a friend with someone, I wont s/he to use casual language to me no matter how old s/he is.
Anyway, it really depends on a person. Don't warry! Japanese people aren't as petty-minded as it may seem.:)
Hi.
This is my opinion as a Japanese who went to university in Japan.
IMO, your friend is a bit too uptight about your "manners." Some posters have already mentioned this, but students in the same academic year normally speak casually with one another without using the polite form. I had a classmate who was almost 10 years older than everyone else back in university. We all spoke with him just like we did one another. He didn't have to remind us to do that.
OTOH, I agree that using the correct form of the Japanese language depending upon who you talk to can be extremely tricky. Like かんくん says in #2, it is probably the best to use the polite form all the time if you want to avoid unnecessary trouble. As you spend more time in Japan (assuming that you will go there), you will be able to learn how to use different forms of the Japanese language appropriately.
Funny how this "seniority and language" thing is so deeply implanted in the Japanese culture. I am no exception. I've been in the U.S. for over 17 years but still feel uncomfortable talking with someone older than me in casual Japanese, even if he/she insists that I do.
This is my opinion as a Japanese who went to university in Japan.
IMO, your friend is a bit too uptight about your "manners." Some posters have already mentioned this, but students in the same academic year normally speak casually with one another without using the polite form. I had a classmate who was almost 10 years older than everyone else back in university. We all spoke with him just like we did one another. He didn't have to remind us to do that.
OTOH, I agree that using the correct form of the Japanese language depending upon who you talk to can be extremely tricky. Like かんくん says in #2, it is probably the best to use the polite form all the time if you want to avoid unnecessary trouble. As you spend more time in Japan (assuming that you will go there), you will be able to learn how to use different forms of the Japanese language appropriately.
Funny how this "seniority and language" thing is so deeply implanted in the Japanese culture. I am no exception. I've been in the U.S. for over 17 years but still feel uncomfortable talking with someone older than me in casual Japanese, even if he/she insists that I do.
>カレコラ
I recently had this discussion with a good friend of mine at work. She said that with Japanese friends, at the beginning, everyone is nice. They won't show their true feelings easily and will compliment my level of Japanese (which is horrible!) so that I won't feel discouraged. But this is just the outside face. She said that once they feel comfortable in our friendship (which typically takes longer for the feelings on their side to develop versus my side) only then will they let me know their real opinions on things. Only then will they tell me of their concerns for me or if something I've done has unwittingly offended them. She used the analogy that a Japanese person was like an onion, there were different layers that they felt comfortable showing people depending on their relationship.
With this explanation in mind, I think that your friend was just trying to be that... a friend. She actually cared enough about you to voice her concerns. She felt comfortable enough in your friendship to be honest with you. It may have seemed rude and a bit of a shock, but I think that many of us Westerners are lulled into a false sense of security because we're not necessarily used to the idea of a public face versus a private face. The personality that I show the world is the person that I am at all times.
Also, you mentioned that she wrote the letter in Japanese. I'm not disparaging your level at all, mine is far more inferior, but could this be an example of something being lost in translation? Even though I'm a native English speaker, I've had things that I've written to friends via e-mail or messages go wrong because of an interpretive misunderstanding. (^_^;;)
Just playing the devil's advocate and how I see the situation with the little bit of the story that I know and my own personal experiences. I freely admit that the assumptions that I have made could be completely wrong. Every situation and individual is different, ne?
I recently had this discussion with a good friend of mine at work. She said that with Japanese friends, at the beginning, everyone is nice. They won't show their true feelings easily and will compliment my level of Japanese (which is horrible!) so that I won't feel discouraged. But this is just the outside face. She said that once they feel comfortable in our friendship (which typically takes longer for the feelings on their side to develop versus my side) only then will they let me know their real opinions on things. Only then will they tell me of their concerns for me or if something I've done has unwittingly offended them. She used the analogy that a Japanese person was like an onion, there were different layers that they felt comfortable showing people depending on their relationship.
With this explanation in mind, I think that your friend was just trying to be that... a friend. She actually cared enough about you to voice her concerns. She felt comfortable enough in your friendship to be honest with you. It may have seemed rude and a bit of a shock, but I think that many of us Westerners are lulled into a false sense of security because we're not necessarily used to the idea of a public face versus a private face. The personality that I show the world is the person that I am at all times.
Also, you mentioned that she wrote the letter in Japanese. I'm not disparaging your level at all, mine is far more inferior, but could this be an example of something being lost in translation? Even though I'm a native English speaker, I've had things that I've written to friends via e-mail or messages go wrong because of an interpretive misunderstanding. (^_^;;)
Just playing the devil's advocate and how I see the situation with the little bit of the story that I know and my own personal experiences. I freely admit that the assumptions that I have made could be completely wrong. Every situation and individual is different, ne?
Maybe she just wants to help you improve your Japanese, but expressed it badly? Particularly since polite speech isn't just a matter of manners in Japanese, it can also be a matter of grammatical correctness as well. She may be oversensitive, but she may also be right at the same time. You could always ask your teacher of course.
I think it's good she told you of your mistakes in Japanese. Most japanese, even close friends, don't tell me mistakes. The only time a japanese person has ever told me of my mistakes if when they were my boyfriend or a really really close friend. And even then they had lived abroad. It's one of the reasons I am not confident in using the little japanese I know, because most of the time people don't tell me I'm making a mistake.
But I think it was rude and harsh of her to tell you it's a reason not to go to Japan. Of course you can go to Japan! There are so many people here who don't know any japanese at all, and hardly anyone who can speak it perfectly! Most people will be beyond thrilled that you even try and speak it at all, and if you offend them they most likely will write it off as you being a foreigner, not a rude a person. When in doubt of your language skills, just carry yourself politely and reserved, if your personality is apologetic and not harsh then I think people will know you are not intending to be rude. The best way to improve your japanese is to go to Japan and see how it is used everyday and communicate with native speakers. Also since you are not in Japan, all the japanese you communiate with in person have been abroad, and trust me...there is a HUGE difference in Japanese who have lived abroad and those who have not left Japan.
But I think it was rude and harsh of her to tell you it's a reason not to go to Japan. Of course you can go to Japan! There are so many people here who don't know any japanese at all, and hardly anyone who can speak it perfectly! Most people will be beyond thrilled that you even try and speak it at all, and if you offend them they most likely will write it off as you being a foreigner, not a rude a person. When in doubt of your language skills, just carry yourself politely and reserved, if your personality is apologetic and not harsh then I think people will know you are not intending to be rude. The best way to improve your japanese is to go to Japan and see how it is used everyday and communicate with native speakers. Also since you are not in Japan, all the japanese you communiate with in person have been abroad, and trust me...there is a HUGE difference in Japanese who have lived abroad and those who have not left Japan.
15> カレコラ
Hey I wasn't trying to have a go at your Japanese by the way!
Wow a design job? You chose a great city to do that. Best of luck.
I'm sure you know, but Japanese firms run designers pretty hard. So be prepared for round the clock work almost everyday, and little compensation too.
I actually work in a design office, my job is copywriting by the way, so I see how ragged the Japanese designers get - usually the first thing I see in the morning when I get in is the designers sleeping under, at, next to their desks. There's a pretty high staff turnover rate too - I think most Japanese firms work on the "last in door, first out the door" policy quite liberally. There are just so many budding designers out there.
"A japanese company will not employ me for your level of Japanese"
Sure.
Honestly I think you're best chance is to try and get in with a big Western firm like Wieden & Kennedy or something - although I can just imagine how long the waiting list for their Tokyo office is.
I think a lot of Japanese design offices aren't against the idea of employing foreign designers, but getting your foot in the door is the hardest part.
As far as language proficiency goes, I can buy that you won't need anywhere near the level of Japanese a person working in sales (the front end of business) would - I guess it depends what kind of design work you want to do....
If you were looking at commercial design work - DMs, posters, packaging etc then I think the custom is that you have to meet the client face to face - most times that is going to be a "koukokudairiten" like Dentsu who will be throwing your company business from their clients like convenience stores and brewers. But your Japanese level sounds more than OK for these situations - just keep in mind that for most Japanese managers, it doesn't matter if your job description is "designer", because as soon as anyone is infront of a client they are expected to act accordingly i.e bring "eigyou" etiquette with them.
That said, I'm sure they'll show you all this, or probably more likely do the Victorian style "seen and not heard" type thing....
Perhaps you want to do a completely different kind of design work though, in which case please just disregard all that : )
Well I hope you aren't getting the wrong message カレコラ, I don't want to sound like I'm trying to knock you. I hope you get that design job because I'd like to see more foreigners getting a break in Japan...
Then hopefully in ten years or so, we'll have a work place where we can all go home at 6pm!
Hey I wasn't trying to have a go at your Japanese by the way!
Wow a design job? You chose a great city to do that. Best of luck.
I'm sure you know, but Japanese firms run designers pretty hard. So be prepared for round the clock work almost everyday, and little compensation too.
I actually work in a design office, my job is copywriting by the way, so I see how ragged the Japanese designers get - usually the first thing I see in the morning when I get in is the designers sleeping under, at, next to their desks. There's a pretty high staff turnover rate too - I think most Japanese firms work on the "last in door, first out the door" policy quite liberally. There are just so many budding designers out there.
"A japanese company will not employ me for your level of Japanese"
Sure.
Honestly I think you're best chance is to try and get in with a big Western firm like Wieden & Kennedy or something - although I can just imagine how long the waiting list for their Tokyo office is.
I think a lot of Japanese design offices aren't against the idea of employing foreign designers, but getting your foot in the door is the hardest part.
As far as language proficiency goes, I can buy that you won't need anywhere near the level of Japanese a person working in sales (the front end of business) would - I guess it depends what kind of design work you want to do....
If you were looking at commercial design work - DMs, posters, packaging etc then I think the custom is that you have to meet the client face to face - most times that is going to be a "koukokudairiten" like Dentsu who will be throwing your company business from their clients like convenience stores and brewers. But your Japanese level sounds more than OK for these situations - just keep in mind that for most Japanese managers, it doesn't matter if your job description is "designer", because as soon as anyone is infront of a client they are expected to act accordingly i.e bring "eigyou" etiquette with them.
That said, I'm sure they'll show you all this, or probably more likely do the Victorian style "seen and not heard" type thing....
Perhaps you want to do a completely different kind of design work though, in which case please just disregard all that : )
Well I hope you aren't getting the wrong message カレコラ, I don't want to sound like I'm trying to knock you. I hope you get that design job because I'd like to see more foreigners getting a break in Japan...
Then hopefully in ten years or so, we'll have a work place where we can all go home at 6pm!
oh also to those saying it doesn't matter in the first place because they are not in Japan...I still think it matters because they are using Japanese. When I communicate with my Japanese friends in english, eventhough we are in Japan, their way of thinking changes to be more western. They are usually more open etc. But when they use Japanese they switch right back to the japanese "rules".
Ok you are both studying in the same class in an university in England and shez five years elder to you. You feel you got offended by her saying you have been rude to her and your Japanese is not good enough to be able to work in Japan.
I feel she wanted you to improve your Japanese up to the level to the standard of work.
She just meant you would be regarded as a rude foreinger if you speak Japanese at your level then.
Don't concern about the mail too much.
Make it kind of motivation to work up with.
I have some guyz a lot older than me in class. I don't consider them seniors just cuz they are elder to me.
You are right.
Just shake it off and continue working on to get better.
I feel she wanted you to improve your Japanese up to the level to the standard of work.
She just meant you would be regarded as a rude foreinger if you speak Japanese at your level then.
Don't concern about the mail too much.
Make it kind of motivation to work up with.
I have some guyz a lot older than me in class. I don't consider them seniors just cuz they are elder to me.
You are right.
Just shake it off and continue working on to get better.
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