What are your thoughts on patriotism? In the U.S.,
it seems that most homes have an American flag flying.
A friend of mine moved to the U.S. for work a few
years ago, and after a few days one of the neighbours
actually approached him and asked why he wasn't flying
an American flag.
In Australia I can drive for 10 kilometres and be
lucky to see 1 or 2. We just don't do that, although
lately I've noticed a lot of mostly young people
with stickers on their car with a picture of the
Australian flag and a caption underneath saying
"Love it or leave" (it makes me uncomfortable).
I heard a story about a young girl a few years ago
who turned her back on the U.S. flag during the
national anthem as a protest against the war in Iraq.
She received death threats was expelled from school
and had great difficulty finding a school that would
take her.
In England, you occasionally see patriotism turn
to violence at sporting events, and in Japan the
most confronting it gets is with the right wing
nationalists.
So the question is, what are your thoughts / beliefs?
Good, bad or indifferent?
it seems that most homes have an American flag flying.
A friend of mine moved to the U.S. for work a few
years ago, and after a few days one of the neighbours
actually approached him and asked why he wasn't flying
an American flag.
In Australia I can drive for 10 kilometres and be
lucky to see 1 or 2. We just don't do that, although
lately I've noticed a lot of mostly young people
with stickers on their car with a picture of the
Australian flag and a caption underneath saying
"Love it or leave" (it makes me uncomfortable).
I heard a story about a young girl a few years ago
who turned her back on the U.S. flag during the
national anthem as a protest against the war in Iraq.
She received death threats was expelled from school
and had great difficulty finding a school that would
take her.
In England, you occasionally see patriotism turn
to violence at sporting events, and in Japan the
most confronting it gets is with the right wing
nationalists.
So the question is, what are your thoughts / beliefs?
Good, bad or indifferent?
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コメント(21)
Australian "patriotism" is nothing but thinly veiled racism - Cronnulla made this clear and its stupid because all involved have no more right to claim Australia to be their own.
America is heading a similar way with its recent look at immigration policy, people "forgetting" that they are the descendants of immigrants themselves.
I think we are forgetting that there is naught but a passport dividing one human from another when it comes to nationality.
America is heading a similar way with its recent look at immigration policy, people "forgetting" that they are the descendants of immigrants themselves.
I think we are forgetting that there is naught but a passport dividing one human from another when it comes to nationality.
Patriotism seems to come with violence always. The very idea of "We are the right kind of people for the nation" is very much wrong and childish, and forcing others to feel the same way is already a violence.
Even if it is some kind of love, that "love" only reaches to the national border. Now what kind of love is that? As long as patriotism has that shadow of violence and unconsciousness behind, i feel no sympathy to it. (No one truely would, except some violent and unconscious people.)
Even if it is some kind of love, that "love" only reaches to the national border. Now what kind of love is that? As long as patriotism has that shadow of violence and unconsciousness behind, i feel no sympathy to it. (No one truely would, except some violent and unconscious people.)
I used to be a big fan of the stars and stripes.
But since 911 it's become a total cliche and has lost all meaning, for me anyway. I think people have misunderstood it, and misused it. In other words, it's been bastardized.
For me, and for many other people I'm sure, it now has the same tacky effect as a plastic pink flamingo in the front yard.
People think all they have to do is fly the flag and say meaningless things like "united we stand" and they're somehow contributing to the unity, strength and "freedom" of America.
Also, I think American's have been conditioned through the last couple of hundred years to believe they are the best and the strongest and whatever they do it right, and that war has something to do with glory and honour and not politics or money.
And I think that the flag is treated too much like some sacred object - don't let it touch the ground, don't burn it, don't defecate on it. But it's just some multicolored cloth some dude in South Bend made in a factory, probably cursing it all day long. Nationalism is a religion in America, that's pretty much the only conclusion I can come to. It's as if you have some different opinion or believe about the state of the country and the world, you're an outsider and you don't belong. In what kind of a free country are people harassed and criticized for disagreeing with others?
But since 911 it's become a total cliche and has lost all meaning, for me anyway. I think people have misunderstood it, and misused it. In other words, it's been bastardized.
For me, and for many other people I'm sure, it now has the same tacky effect as a plastic pink flamingo in the front yard.
People think all they have to do is fly the flag and say meaningless things like "united we stand" and they're somehow contributing to the unity, strength and "freedom" of America.
Also, I think American's have been conditioned through the last couple of hundred years to believe they are the best and the strongest and whatever they do it right, and that war has something to do with glory and honour and not politics or money.
And I think that the flag is treated too much like some sacred object - don't let it touch the ground, don't burn it, don't defecate on it. But it's just some multicolored cloth some dude in South Bend made in a factory, probably cursing it all day long. Nationalism is a religion in America, that's pretty much the only conclusion I can come to. It's as if you have some different opinion or believe about the state of the country and the world, you're an outsider and you don't belong. In what kind of a free country are people harassed and criticized for disagreeing with others?
>In what kind of a free country are people harassed and criticized for disagreeing with others?
In a not-very-free country, of course!
In that sense, it's far easier and almost in vogue to criticize your own nation in Japan. Of course, there are some wacky ultra-nationalists, but by and large you hear a lot of "we're sort of a pathetic country, and our national anthem sucks balls" from folks in Japan.
In a not-very-free country, of course!
In that sense, it's far easier and almost in vogue to criticize your own nation in Japan. Of course, there are some wacky ultra-nationalists, but by and large you hear a lot of "we're sort of a pathetic country, and our national anthem sucks balls" from folks in Japan.
As far as I am concerned there are two types of patriotism.
1. Natural Patriotism: An affection, respect and compassion for the country where you were born, or have adopted. This patriotism is a natural part of the human affection for where he/she lives. It means enjoying one's culture, history and heritage. And most importantly there is nothing forced about it. The level of natual patriotism depends upon the individual and cannot be compelled by anyone else.
2. Nationalism: Nationalism is dangerous. It encourages people to see their country as somehow superior to others. It divides the world into Us and Them. It is often compulsory with governments or leaders dictating what it should or should not include. And it is a tool of control.
America has always been a bit more inclined to Nationlism than to Natural Patriotism. But post 911 we have seen a blind nationalism grow and infect many of our citizens. Sadly this sheepish following of state propaganda does us more disservice than good. And in the end it robs us of our individual freedom to choose what we support, what we disagree with and what we believe.
Nationalism is an inherent enemy of peace. It is a motivator for hatred, division, conflict and war. It blinds nations to their own faults and blinds the population. It is a primative evil that we do not need in the 21st century. Sadly, it is clearl on the rise in the US and in many other places around the world.
Consider it a form a de-evolution. Moving backwards away from the enlightenment that should bring peace and hope.
1. Natural Patriotism: An affection, respect and compassion for the country where you were born, or have adopted. This patriotism is a natural part of the human affection for where he/she lives. It means enjoying one's culture, history and heritage. And most importantly there is nothing forced about it. The level of natual patriotism depends upon the individual and cannot be compelled by anyone else.
2. Nationalism: Nationalism is dangerous. It encourages people to see their country as somehow superior to others. It divides the world into Us and Them. It is often compulsory with governments or leaders dictating what it should or should not include. And it is a tool of control.
America has always been a bit more inclined to Nationlism than to Natural Patriotism. But post 911 we have seen a blind nationalism grow and infect many of our citizens. Sadly this sheepish following of state propaganda does us more disservice than good. And in the end it robs us of our individual freedom to choose what we support, what we disagree with and what we believe.
Nationalism is an inherent enemy of peace. It is a motivator for hatred, division, conflict and war. It blinds nations to their own faults and blinds the population. It is a primative evil that we do not need in the 21st century. Sadly, it is clearl on the rise in the US and in many other places around the world.
Consider it a form a de-evolution. Moving backwards away from the enlightenment that should bring peace and hope.
Sorry, this is somewhat off-topic, but this is a question for anyone else here that is living in the US. Those of you that often go to the theaters...in the last year or so, have you been able to go to the movies without the opening trailer being a 5-minute movie on the Army/Navy/Air Force/National Guard? Maybe I'm just imagining things... (doubtful)
Rajio san,I completely understand. That kind of patriotism makes me uncomfortable. We have the same bumper stickers in the US, the "love or leave" stickers. There are plenty of Americans like myself who are turned off by patriotism. Its kind of a tough balance to walk, I like the US, I grew up here, and my family and most of my friends are American, but I have a lot of problems with the US. I don't fly a flag, because ultimately its just a symbol, and to me it carries all the negative with the positive.
In a way I understand patriotism, because I'm a Chicago native, and I boost my city like no other, but I guess I'm hypocritical in that sense, (criticizing patriotism but being so proud of my city) I see the contradiction. Its just easier to justify the negative of just one city, which makes it easier to be proud of the positives.
I guess my point is that I think patriotism is only acceptable if one is willing to acknowledge the negatives about one's country. To blindly flaunt the positives is just naive. If we only look at the positives, then we can't make any improvements. And countries like the US, the UK, Japan, and Australia are great because social change can be made (hopefully for the better). OPTIMISM!
In a way I understand patriotism, because I'm a Chicago native, and I boost my city like no other, but I guess I'm hypocritical in that sense, (criticizing patriotism but being so proud of my city) I see the contradiction. Its just easier to justify the negative of just one city, which makes it easier to be proud of the positives.
I guess my point is that I think patriotism is only acceptable if one is willing to acknowledge the negatives about one's country. To blindly flaunt the positives is just naive. If we only look at the positives, then we can't make any improvements. And countries like the US, the UK, Japan, and Australia are great because social change can be made (hopefully for the better). OPTIMISM!
>ネート
ur not imagining, recruiting is in the toilet for all the armed services, so advertising, and incentives are on the rise.
>unbdaveable
I agree, it is bastardized, people are afraid to not conform. The often let the ignorant many determine thier choices.
>rajio
Tell ur friend the next time that person ask him a question like that to tell them it clashes with his paint job.
>テッド
the fact that people can criticize you is what makes it free. remember their are still places in the world where people come up missing for differing with national opinion.
As for my opinion,
I am in a kind of suspended animation, living here is like watching the slowest car crash known to man.
I'll explain...
9/11=terrible event
whole world sympathizes with usa.
oppurtunistic people use sympathy and national unity to pursue thier own agenda.
Not wanting to be singled out, people continue to walk off the edge of reason like lemmings, instead of saying "enough", giving away freedoms, already paid for in blood.
It all came to me when i saw a 'we support our troops' sticker on the back of a gas-guzzling suv's.
in a war for oil, i guess thier support is to make sure the country stays dependedant on it.
I say we do it like the old days, those that chose to go to war, actually have to go themselves. No old rich man is going to send my ass off to die.
ur not imagining, recruiting is in the toilet for all the armed services, so advertising, and incentives are on the rise.
>unbdaveable
I agree, it is bastardized, people are afraid to not conform. The often let the ignorant many determine thier choices.
>rajio
Tell ur friend the next time that person ask him a question like that to tell them it clashes with his paint job.
>テッド
the fact that people can criticize you is what makes it free. remember their are still places in the world where people come up missing for differing with national opinion.
As for my opinion,
I am in a kind of suspended animation, living here is like watching the slowest car crash known to man.
I'll explain...
9/11=terrible event
whole world sympathizes with usa.
oppurtunistic people use sympathy and national unity to pursue thier own agenda.
Not wanting to be singled out, people continue to walk off the edge of reason like lemmings, instead of saying "enough", giving away freedoms, already paid for in blood.
It all came to me when i saw a 'we support our troops' sticker on the back of a gas-guzzling suv's.
in a war for oil, i guess thier support is to make sure the country stays dependedant on it.
I say we do it like the old days, those that chose to go to war, actually have to go themselves. No old rich man is going to send my ass off to die.
>6 and 9
I agree with both of your opinions completely.
We should all share a global patriotism. It's perfectly fine to be proud of where you live and where you are from. But no matter where we are from and where we live we are all share the same race (the human race). We should be proud of that.
And Kelly, it's kind of ironic that you used the term "de-evolution". As they say, Evolution is the "survival of the fittest" so it kind of supports the idea of Nationalism in that sense. But I think we all understood what you really meant.
I agree with both of your opinions completely.
We should all share a global patriotism. It's perfectly fine to be proud of where you live and where you are from. But no matter where we are from and where we live we are all share the same race (the human race). We should be proud of that.
And Kelly, it's kind of ironic that you used the term "de-evolution". As they say, Evolution is the "survival of the fittest" so it kind of supports the idea of Nationalism in that sense. But I think we all understood what you really meant.
Hmm, I sense a slight confusion of the terms here, ut maybe I just see things different as I am a Swede.
To me, Patriotism is blind love for one's government (they may say it's the love for the country, but whenever you really talk to patriots, you quickly realize that it's the government they're trying to defend, especially foreign policy). This is what is on the rise in the US, and many other places. It is very dangerous, especially in a democracy.
Nationalism, on the other hand, is love for one's country, culture, and such. It has many sides, from the quiet old man living in the countryside, loving the nature, to the teenager feeling at home among people sharing the same culture. It's also hoping your group will win in sports, and it's also what the right-wing nationalists try to abuse by promoting an extreme form of nationalism. Basically, nationalism is a collection of all that sets a country apart from another. It's important for our diverse culture in this world, and it's also the cause of many of our problems.
The main cause in "Us and Them" problems come from different culture, and a different way to combat issues. Thus, nationalism has to be combined with a large amount of understanding of other cultures and nations, or we'll have problems.
There is also forced nationalism, as in the US of late, but it's mostly forced by extremist groups (who seek out and treathen 'traitors'), but there's of course many examples of government-forced nationalism, usually tied in with partiotism in an ugly mess.
My 2 Yen, I hope it made sense somehow.
To me, Patriotism is blind love for one's government (they may say it's the love for the country, but whenever you really talk to patriots, you quickly realize that it's the government they're trying to defend, especially foreign policy). This is what is on the rise in the US, and many other places. It is very dangerous, especially in a democracy.
Nationalism, on the other hand, is love for one's country, culture, and such. It has many sides, from the quiet old man living in the countryside, loving the nature, to the teenager feeling at home among people sharing the same culture. It's also hoping your group will win in sports, and it's also what the right-wing nationalists try to abuse by promoting an extreme form of nationalism. Basically, nationalism is a collection of all that sets a country apart from another. It's important for our diverse culture in this world, and it's also the cause of many of our problems.
The main cause in "Us and Them" problems come from different culture, and a different way to combat issues. Thus, nationalism has to be combined with a large amount of understanding of other cultures and nations, or we'll have problems.
There is also forced nationalism, as in the US of late, but it's mostly forced by extremist groups (who seek out and treathen 'traitors'), but there's of course many examples of government-forced nationalism, usually tied in with partiotism in an ugly mess.
My 2 Yen, I hope it made sense somehow.
Another way of looking at patriotism is critique with the intent to improve current conditions. If you see your nation going towards a destructive course, it'd take a lot of courage to go against the grain for the sake of the nation. This type of action would typically be seen as unpatriotic, but from another perspective it's very patriotic.
テッド> Again, it depends on if you define patriotic as loyal to the nation at large, or loyal to the government. The actual word means loyalty to your leaders, so... I think that what most people call patriotism (love for your country) is actually nationalism (the healthy kind), but the US has had propaganda for decades confusing the two ideas. Patriotism is a form of loyalty, while nationalism is a love for the nature and culture where you live (or some other place you like).
In a democracy, patriotism may also mean that you are loyal to the current form of government, rather than just the current administration. Thus, if you're a patriot, you would fight for democracy, and thus go up against the governemt if they challenged this.
In a democracy, patriotism may also mean that you are loyal to the current form of government, rather than just the current administration. Thus, if you're a patriot, you would fight for democracy, and thus go up against the governemt if they challenged this.
The Oxford dictionary defines patriot as "a
person who vigorously supports their country and
is prepared to defend it". It lists nationalist
as a simile.
Personally I think there are levels, but when
I asked the question I was thinking of people
who have the view that their country can do no
wrong. I see this a lot in Australia in relation
to our war experience. Anyone who suggests that
some Australian soldiers, like the soldiers of
every nation have committed war crimes will
be branded as "un-Australian". The Anzac legend
is a bit of a sacred cow over here but it's
also a myth.
I honestly think patriotism is for the young.
As you get older you start to realise the
world is over-rated. I'm not saying I don't
like Australia (I'd sure as hell prefer living
here to Sudan or Ethiopia) but I would say I
like Japan, Germany, France and Malaysia
just as much as I like Australia.
person who vigorously supports their country and
is prepared to defend it". It lists nationalist
as a simile.
Personally I think there are levels, but when
I asked the question I was thinking of people
who have the view that their country can do no
wrong. I see this a lot in Australia in relation
to our war experience. Anyone who suggests that
some Australian soldiers, like the soldiers of
every nation have committed war crimes will
be branded as "un-Australian". The Anzac legend
is a bit of a sacred cow over here but it's
also a myth.
I honestly think patriotism is for the young.
As you get older you start to realise the
world is over-rated. I'm not saying I don't
like Australia (I'd sure as hell prefer living
here to Sudan or Ethiopia) but I would say I
like Japan, Germany, France and Malaysia
just as much as I like Australia.
I'm an Aussie, living in Brisbane...
The love it or leave stickers, are more an aim at the 'whingers' I think... Basically if you dont like Australia, no one is asking you to stay... Kinda thing i assume...
I think Australia is one of the most un-patriotic countries around, we're too laid back and eazy going to cause a fuss. However when it is important then I suspose we are. Any other aussies remember what happened after the soccer world cup? Everytime Australia won a match it was a mayhem of cars and people carrying flags the next morning!
The love it or leave stickers, are more an aim at the 'whingers' I think... Basically if you dont like Australia, no one is asking you to stay... Kinda thing i assume...
I think Australia is one of the most un-patriotic countries around, we're too laid back and eazy going to cause a fuss. However when it is important then I suspose we are. Any other aussies remember what happened after the soccer world cup? Everytime Australia won a match it was a mayhem of cars and people carrying flags the next morning!
>> The love it or leave stickers, are
>> more an aim at the 'whingers' I think...
>> Basically if you dont like Australia,
>> no one is asking you to stay... Kinda
>> thing i assume...
So who are the whingers? I know who usually uses
the label and who they're usually talking about,
but who do you think the whingers are?
>> more an aim at the 'whingers' I think...
>> Basically if you dont like Australia,
>> no one is asking you to stay... Kinda
>> thing i assume...
So who are the whingers? I know who usually uses
the label and who they're usually talking about,
but who do you think the whingers are?
I am a Korean Japnese. I had Korean education at school in Japan and now I'm studying in India.
When I was the Korean school I think I conformed subconsciously conformed whatever teachers taught and was taught to live for Korea. In Korean schools they fly the flag also. And most of them belive in the country whatever the country does. I was, too. But once I stepped out the "protected environment", I thought I've lost my belief. My father and mother went to Korean school like me but they aren't so much as ardent as others are. they changed nationality to South.
Being a Korean student I took it granted that I should advocate and devote myself to my country. But now in India, I see many people bashing North and even I don't believe they are doing right. I don't belive in North Korea anymore, but I do not love the country I grew up either. It's reallly difficult sometimes to express my identity over here in India and I wanna say I'm a Korean coz I was raised so. But a part of me in my mind keeps saying I'm a Japanese. I think the zainiti will have lot of difficulities living in Japan in near future due to the sudden selling of the main Souren office. heck I don't know why they did that.
So all I'm trying to say is there's no country I suppport as a patriot for now. It may be changed later...you may think me indifferent I don't know.
When I was the Korean school I think I conformed subconsciously conformed whatever teachers taught and was taught to live for Korea. In Korean schools they fly the flag also. And most of them belive in the country whatever the country does. I was, too. But once I stepped out the "protected environment", I thought I've lost my belief. My father and mother went to Korean school like me but they aren't so much as ardent as others are. they changed nationality to South.
Being a Korean student I took it granted that I should advocate and devote myself to my country. But now in India, I see many people bashing North and even I don't believe they are doing right. I don't belive in North Korea anymore, but I do not love the country I grew up either. It's reallly difficult sometimes to express my identity over here in India and I wanna say I'm a Korean coz I was raised so. But a part of me in my mind keeps saying I'm a Japanese. I think the zainiti will have lot of difficulities living in Japan in near future due to the sudden selling of the main Souren office. heck I don't know why they did that.
So all I'm trying to say is there's no country I suppport as a patriot for now. It may be changed later...you may think me indifferent I don't know.
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