https:/
Badawi
Do you see a shift in policy? Do you see an abandonment of that strategic ambiguity in favor of a more robust approach?
Tang …it's been called “strategic clarity,” right? Spelling it out, as you just mentioned.
Badawi
Yeah. So you do. But do you think that's reassuring for the Taiwanese? Or arguably, it could put you right in the middle of the growing tensions between China and the United States. You could end up becoming a pawn in this superpower rivalry.
Tang A couple of things.
I think, first of all, clarity doesn't mean escalation. So it's not like we're escalating the tension here. That's the first thing.
And the second thing is that, as I mentioned, there's a lot of willingness from not just the US but also European counterparts and many other democratic allies.
All the 60 signatories of the Declaration for the Future of the Internet are committed to keep it free and open.
Badawi
Sticking with the tensions, you're not escalating the tensions, but the tensions between China and the United States are escalating. Joe Biden has got the export controls now on Chinese technology and so on. And my point is, how is Taiwan viewing this?
Because I'll give you a quote, Michael Swain from the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft says Biden's statements make Taiwan less secure because they increase the chance of the US being pulled into a war. Makes you less secure. Is it right?
Tang
The point I'm making is that, for example, the UK also realized that previously considered "inexpensive" 5G communication equipments from authoritarian regimes are actually expensive, if you think about the risk it poses to national security.
So it's not like only the US does that assessment. Everybody else is doing the same assessment and concludes that Taiwan is the more trustworthy partner when it comes to powering the secure telecommunication or any scientific, military computation needs.
Badawi It’s the better democratic partner and they're willing to commit...
Tang Yeah, exactly.
Badawi ..military support, and that's something that's good in your opinion.
Tang Right. So this is not a US-PRC thing. This is a free democratic alliance thing.
Badawi
All right. Finally, as Minister of Digital Affairs, Audrey Tang, you're trying to transform Taiwan into a digital democracy. Around 87% of people under the age of 12 are connected. And you want to increase citizen participation online.
Tang Yes.
Badawi
How do you think you're going to be able to develop this? I mean, could you go the way of China that uses surveillance to increase its authoritarianism?
America, where we've seen the internet being used in a way that polarizes society more. How are you going to avoid falling into either trap?
Tang
Yeah. So our point is that democracy can deliver — if it becomes more democratic, so that everybody can participate.
You mentioned Chiang Kai-shek's relocation [laughs] of the ROC government to Taiwan in the '40s.
At the time, there's very — like, people with very different life experiences suddenly having to coexist together.
My own grandma is a local Taiwanese who studied Japanese and my grandpa comes from Szechuan. So in my family, I understand the need to collaborate across diversity.
Today, Taiwan is home to, like, 20 national languages and many different ethnic people. So the point I'm making is that democracy must build collaboration across diversity, and that's the way we're employing digital technologies to do.
Badawi
Audrey Tang, Minister of Digital Affairs here in Taiwan, thank you very much indeed for coming on HARDtalk.
Tang Thank you. Live long and prosper.
Badawi
Do you see a shift in policy? Do you see an abandonment of that strategic ambiguity in favor of a more robust approach?
Tang …it's been called “strategic clarity,” right? Spelling it out, as you just mentioned.
Badawi
Yeah. So you do. But do you think that's reassuring for the Taiwanese? Or arguably, it could put you right in the middle of the growing tensions between China and the United States. You could end up becoming a pawn in this superpower rivalry.
Tang A couple of things.
I think, first of all, clarity doesn't mean escalation. So it's not like we're escalating the tension here. That's the first thing.
And the second thing is that, as I mentioned, there's a lot of willingness from not just the US but also European counterparts and many other democratic allies.
All the 60 signatories of the Declaration for the Future of the Internet are committed to keep it free and open.
Badawi
Sticking with the tensions, you're not escalating the tensions, but the tensions between China and the United States are escalating. Joe Biden has got the export controls now on Chinese technology and so on. And my point is, how is Taiwan viewing this?
Because I'll give you a quote, Michael Swain from the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft says Biden's statements make Taiwan less secure because they increase the chance of the US being pulled into a war. Makes you less secure. Is it right?
Tang
The point I'm making is that, for example, the UK also realized that previously considered "inexpensive" 5G communication equipments from authoritarian regimes are actually expensive, if you think about the risk it poses to national security.
So it's not like only the US does that assessment. Everybody else is doing the same assessment and concludes that Taiwan is the more trustworthy partner when it comes to powering the secure telecommunication or any scientific, military computation needs.
Badawi It’s the better democratic partner and they're willing to commit...
Tang Yeah, exactly.
Badawi ..military support, and that's something that's good in your opinion.
Tang Right. So this is not a US-PRC thing. This is a free democratic alliance thing.
Badawi
All right. Finally, as Minister of Digital Affairs, Audrey Tang, you're trying to transform Taiwan into a digital democracy. Around 87% of people under the age of 12 are connected. And you want to increase citizen participation online.
Tang Yes.
Badawi
How do you think you're going to be able to develop this? I mean, could you go the way of China that uses surveillance to increase its authoritarianism?
America, where we've seen the internet being used in a way that polarizes society more. How are you going to avoid falling into either trap?
Tang
Yeah. So our point is that democracy can deliver — if it becomes more democratic, so that everybody can participate.
You mentioned Chiang Kai-shek's relocation [laughs] of the ROC government to Taiwan in the '40s.
At the time, there's very — like, people with very different life experiences suddenly having to coexist together.
My own grandma is a local Taiwanese who studied Japanese and my grandpa comes from Szechuan. So in my family, I understand the need to collaborate across diversity.
Today, Taiwan is home to, like, 20 national languages and many different ethnic people. So the point I'm making is that democracy must build collaboration across diversity, and that's the way we're employing digital technologies to do.
Badawi
Audrey Tang, Minister of Digital Affairs here in Taiwan, thank you very much indeed for coming on HARDtalk.
Tang Thank you. Live long and prosper.
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