ウィスパリング同時通訳研究会コミュのMathias Cormann speaks to Leigh Sales about his new position as Secretary-General of the OECD | 7.30

LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: Australia's former finance minister, Mathias Cormann, has a powerful new international role as the Secretary-General of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

It was created to stimulate the global economy and trade, and currently plays a key role lobbying for more international action on climate change.

The former Australian senator joins me now from Perth.

Thanks for joining us and congratulations on your new post.

MATHIAS CORMANN, OECD SECRETARY-GENERAL ELECT: Thank you, Leigh, good to be back.

LEIGH SALES: You can't give Australia preferential treatment as OECD boss, but we keep hearing it touted that it is a win for Australia to have you in the top job. What is the benefit?

MATHIAS CORMANN: Australia is a globally focused, open trading economy. It is clearly in our interest for the world economy to operate to its best potential and I will take the experiences and knowledge and backgrounds that I have gained during my time in Australia as finance minister and before that as a senator, into this new job.

And so as policy considerations are taking place, of course, I mean, I will be able to bring the Australian and the Asia-Pacific perspective to the table.

LEIGH SALES: Let me put this next question in a bit of context. The US is treading fairly firmly with China in the Biden administration and saying it won't improve its diplomatic relationship with China until China ends the kind of trade sanctions that it is imposing on America's close ally, Australia, but then we've also seen the World Health Organization heavily criticised for its softly-softly approach with China during the COVID epidemic.

What do you see the as pressure points in how the OECD will deal with China under your term?

MATHIAS CORMANN: Well, I mean, China is the second biggest economy in the world. It is responsible for a significant proportion of global growth. It is the most important trading partner for a growing number of countries around the world, so it is clearly in the best interests of all OECD member countries to have the best possible relationship with China.

But all OECD member countries share a commitment to a set of core values and principles, a commitment to democracy, human rights, rule of law, market-based economic principles and indeed a rules-based international order and our system, I have to be very clear about the fact that we do have a very different economic and political system so inevitably from time to time there will be pressure points, as you call it, and the OECD provides a great platform to work through those in a positive and constructive fashion.

LEIGH SALES: The OECD believes in putting a clear price on carbon as the best way to tackle climate change. How can you have any credibility pitching the benefits of that have when you were instrumental in repealing Australia's carbon price in 2014?

MATHIAS CORMANN: Well, what is very important is that we achieve the most substantial emissions reductions possible globally and the mainstream argument in Australia has not been about whether or not to pursue ambitious ineffective action on climate change, but how that is best done in the absence of an appropriately comprehensive global agreement on carbon pricing...

LEIGH SALES: And the OECD believes that to be a carbon price, right?

MATHIAS CORMANN: Well, I was just making the point, in the absence of an appropriately comprehensive global agreement on carbon pricing then one of the things that Australia clearly considered in the past, it was not desirable to shift economic activity and emissions into other parts of the world where for the same level of economic output emissions would be higher and that remains an issue that the world needs to grapple with today.

I mean what we do need, I mean, ...

LEIGH SALES: But, sorry, just to return to my original point though, how can you pitch the benefits of carbon price as the head of the OECD when you have repealed it in Australia?

MATHIAS CORMANN: Well, what I'm pitching is a global effort to achieve global zero net emissions by 2050 and what I would say to you and to everyone is that we have got to recognise that different parts of the world come into this issue from different starting position, facing different contexts and environments, and ultimately what matters is the net contribution that each part of the world makes to the overall global effort, and what we need here is, for ambitious and effective action on climate change to be truly effective, it needs to be globally coordinated, it needs to be appropriately multilaterally coordinated, but we've also got to recognise that different parts of the world have got different opportunities to contribute to that global effort.

LEIGH SALES: A couple of questions about Canberra before you go: Did you know of the case of Brittany Higgins before you left politics?

MATHIAS CORMANN: I was not aware of what is alleged to have occurred back when the events occurred, but shortly before I left, I was made aware by the President of the Senate of an incident. I wasn't aware of the full detail.

LEIGH SALES: And did you ask for details? Did you probe for further details?

MATHIAS CORMANN: No. As I say, I wasn't aware back at the time in any shape at all, at the time of the alleged incident.

Shortly before I left, I was made aware of some DPS (Department of Parliament Services) footage having been maintained and I think that is something that Simon Birmingham has actually also indicated to you.

LEIGH SALES: So, when you say shortly before you left, I mean, you were the leader of the Senate, a rape allegedly occurred in a senator's office. In June last year the Senate President asked the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security to take a look at CCTV footage from the night of that incident.

The Finance Department, as you mentioned, knew of the late-night access and the possible security breach and you were a very powerful figure, and nobody thought to tell you?

MATHIAS CORMANN: I was not aware of an alleged rape back then. The Finance Department has made it very clear that I was not briefed in relation to matters that were the purview of the Special Minister of State at the time which wasn't me.

But furthermore, I'm not even sure that the Finance Department knew at the time that there was such an allegation.

LEIGH SALES: So the Finance Department was just going on that it was a security breach, not that there was an incident of this nature, is that what you are saying?

MATHIAS CORMANN: You are going well beyond my state of knowledge. As I have indicated to you, I had no knowledge at the time at all.

The Finance Department has been very clear that they did not provide me with any briefings at the time, even of the alleged security breach. I certainly had no knowledge at all of an alleged rape at the time.

LEIGH SALES: Just a really broad question, in the past few days, we've heard from lots of female staffers in Parliament who clearly have felt sexually harassed or powerless in their experiences there.

Can I ask, were you aware of that when you worked in that environment? And if you're not, no judgement, I'm just really genuinely curious to know, if you sincerely asked yourself, "Why wasn't I aware of it?" What do you think is the answer to that? Are people scared to talk about it, is it because when you are at a ministerial level, you're in a bubble? What is it?

MATHIAS CORMANN: I'm not sure there is much I can add to this conversation. I know that there is an inquiry that is getting under way and I'm sure that will get to the bottom of all of these issues.

LEIGH SALES: Mathias Cormann, thank you.

MATHIAS CORMANN: Always good to talk to you.