ウィスパリング同時通訳研究会コミュのTracey Grimshaw interviews PM Scott Morrison (Treatment of Women in Canberra, Higgins, Porter(ACA)

TRACY GRIMSHAW: Prime Minister, thanks for your time.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks, Tracy.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: Brittany Higgins has released a statement today formally complaining about your office briefing against her partner, presumably to discredit her and undermine her. Do you now acknowledge that that happened?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we started a process today, as I said, in the parliament. I received a direct and confidential source who's reported these matters to me. So we're now dealing with that through the way you deal with complaints against staff members in this place. So it's important I follow that process. The letter also talked about her keenness to participate in that other review that was taking place and the guidelines...
TRACY GRIMSHAW: The Gaetjens review?
PRIME MINISTER: That's right. And so we've taken action to ensure that can happen.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: When you say you've had anonymous information, does it suggest that staffers or a staffer were briefing against Brittany Higgins' partner?

PRIME MINISTER: Well, it was both a direct source, so spoke directly to my chief-of-staff and it was a primary source. So someone who allegedly had witnessed this. So we have a process for dealing with that. And I think it's important that with things like this that I allow how you deal with these matters to be done properly.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: If it happened, what is your view of that?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, as I said in the parliament when this was suggested, this is not something I would ever condone. And Brittany herself has indicated that. She's worked in this building, and I didn't know her personally, as there are many staff that are in this place. She worked very hard for my government, and I'm very appreciative of that. She did a great job working for our government, so much so that we actually didn't want her to go.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: Why haven't you talked to her by now? It's been a month since she went public. Why wouldn't you talk to her?
PRIME MINISTER: I'd be very pleased to. She hasn't expressed an interest in doing that with me, but she's very welcome. Just... I understand there's a letter together with a group of other women who'd like to talk to me about a range of things. And she'd be very welcome.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: I guess, when she came out a month ago and said such dreadful things, such shocking things.
PRIME MINISTER: Shocking.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: Wouldn’t you want to reach out to her and say, can I talk to you about what happened to you? I didn't know. Can I talk to you about this, Brittany?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, again, at that time, and particularly how I started to learn of these things, you are right: it was just shocking. It was daunting.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: So are you going to call her tomorrow? I mean, how is this going to proceed?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, she hasn't asked to speak with me directly.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: You have to speak with her, though, have you?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, whether she would like to have a discussion about something as deeply private and as personal as this then I am open...
TRACY GRIMSHAW: It's not private anymore.
PRIME MINISTER: That is not something that I've been a party to, but I'm happy to have the conversation. And if she would like to, then we will arrange that.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: Prime Minister has one person in this place paid a price for what happened to Brittany Higgins and how it was handled, except for Brittany Higgins?
PRIME MINISTER: I think many people are paying the price. Um, and what I mean by that is this: this is what I mean by this.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: All right.
PRIME MINISTER: Brittany has, whether wittingly or otherwise, in drawing attention to this case, has shone a very important light on things far broader and this has caused great trauma. It has triggered many things, one of the most hard and deeply personal, confronting conversations that I've seen take place here. And it's not just happening here. It's happening all around the country.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: Yes.
PRIME MINISTER: So when I say a price, I don't mean in terms of a justice price. What I'm saying is that's the price I think we all have to pay to be part of this conversation because it's really hard, it's really confronting, it's really difficult. But I'm pleased we're having it. Now in terms of the specific individuals. Well, first of all, I mean, the alleged perpetrator in this case, well there's a police investigation now going on, which I welcome, in relation to the others who were seeking to provide support, well they were.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: They failed.
PRIME MINISTER: Well they did. And I think that's...
TRACY GRIMSHAW: Pretty abysmally.
PRIME MINISTER: But they were relying on the very processes that were not up to the job as well. But what kept happening, I think, and didn't happen was the follow up services. So as she became more traumatised by these events, the services faded away and she was very much on her own.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: You don't need to tell me that. Why was she very much on her own? She told Minister Reynolds', chief-of-staff, within days of it happening. And then Minister Reynolds was told about it. People knew about it. She told people about it. Why was she on her own? People failed her. And you talk about processes. You don't need processes to know how to act humanely and with humanity to someone who has a human problem, surely. You don't need processes to make them a cup of tea, drive them home, make an appointment for a counsellor with them. Don't just give him a counsellor's number and say, here, call this number, do your best. She was abandoned, wasn't she?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I think what these events, people will have their interpretation of them. I think it would be not true to say that those who were there and knew were not trying to give every support they could. Now I agree with you that clearly that didn't pass the test and failed Brittany. No one is disputing that.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: So why do they still have their jobs? Why do they still have their jobs?
PRIME MINISTER: They were trying like anyone else would have been trying in those circumstances. And you know what? We have to fix this. And you don't have to tear things down to build things up. What we need in this place and around the country is much better systems and support and resources that help people in these situations.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: Are you going to move Christian Porter or Linda Reynolds or both of them from their portfolios?
PRIME MINISTER: I'm working through those issues now. I mean, both of them, as you know, one is on mental health leave and the other one is on physical health leave. Linda, in particular, had a very serious coronary condition, and she's been seeking help for that for the past month. She was, as you could see in the chamber, the distress that she was under. And that has had a further effect on her physical health. And so we're still talking to her doctors and her with her permission. And we're working through that with Linda now in terms of what duties she can perform. Has she said she doesn't want to come back?
PRIME MINISTER: No, she hasn't said that.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: All right, onto Christian Porter.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the Christian Porter case is a very different one. I mean, there are historical allegations that have been made. That's not the first time that's happened in this country. I mean, you're aware of historical allegations having been made against another member of parliament here. And on that occasion, what happened is that when the police said there was nothing further to be investigated here, or in fact, in that case, that was the prosecutor who decided not to carry forward the brief of evidence, as I understand. When that matter concluded, that matter concluded. Now we have the same situation when it comes to Mr. Porter. I mean, again, I make the point there are many things that will make our country stronger to deal with these sorts of issues. One of them is the need for greater respect in our society and particularly respect towards women. We might talk about that more in a few minutes. But equally, our courts, our police, our justice systems, they are also important. And we can't, we can't dismiss that and think we're fixing the problem.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: Christian Porter vehemently denies the allegations against him.
PRIME MINISTER: He does.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: You have immediately believed him.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the police have decided that there's no further investigation.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: Well, there really wasn't any investigation because his accuser died. She took her life. So there really hasn't been an investigation. There's been no investigation, Prime Minister. You have just believed him.
PRIME MINISTER: No, what I've done is I've respect the rule of law in this country and how people need to be treated under that rule of law. An allegation could be made against you, against me, against anyone else. And the only system we have when it comes to understanding and treating these issues fairly is to allow that process to do its job. Now, in this case, as if it had done for Mr Shorten. So the same process has been applied to Mr. Porter. And I don't think there should be double standards about these things
TRACY GRIMSHAW: Except that there was an investigation into Mr Shorten. There hasn't been an investigation into Mr Porter. And a criminal investigation is not the only way of probing something like this. These are serious allegations you've just accepted... Christian Porter has vehemently denied it. We watched him that day in his press conference saying, imagine if this isn't true. We all heard him.
PRIME MINISTER: Yes.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: But it seems like no one in the government has thought: imagine if it is.
PRIME MINISTER: No. Well, that's not the case because, and the right way to answer that question to anyone's satisfaction is not for me to play judge and jury or with respect anyone else other than those who actually have given those powers.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: So are you saying Christian Porter and Linda Reynolds still retain your full confidence?
PRIME MINISTER: They will continue to play a very important role in my cabinet.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: Not necessarily their current roles though?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, when I make judgements about those things I'll announce them.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: It sounds like they're not necessarily going to play those current roles.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, when I make those announcements...
TRACY GRIMSHAW: When are you going to make those announcements?
PRIME MINISTER: When I'm in a position to do that.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: You have believed Christian Porter automatically over his accuser. He said he didn't do it and you didn't even read the accuser's statement.
PRIME MINISTER: Can I pull up on that. Again, it's not about what I believe. It is about me trusting the police who investigate these things and form views about whether that can be taken forward. And in the same way...
TRACY GRIMSHAW: They haven't investigated it though.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I don't think that's fair because the police apply the same rules to how they might investigate any matter whether it's you, me or anyone else in the same way that Mr. Shorten or anyone else.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: OK, you're backing Christian Porter. You have believed Eric Abetz...
PRIME MINISTER: Well he's an innocent man.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: He's certainly an innocent man. Yes, he is, you're absolutely right he is a man who...
PRIME MINISTER: So I should treat him as an innocent man.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: All right, and without investigating the accusations against him?
PRIME MINISTER: Because that's a job for the police. If they believe it should be.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: It could be argued, not always a job for the police. You could actually look into it. You could at least read the accusations against him, but you didn't.
PRIME MINISTER: No, that's well, that is unfair because what happened is on the night we became aware of these, I had no copy of those. That information had not come to me on that Wednesday night. It hadn't, it hadn't. It had come to someone else. It had gone to the federal police. I spoke to the federal police commissioner who gave me his understanding of those allegations. I raised those with the Attorney General. He absolutely rejected them. When they eventually came to me, I followed the commissioner's advice. I wasn't in Canberra, I was in Sydney. They weren't sent to me electronically. They were sent to me in hard copy and they were immediately forwarded to the federal police as the commissioner had advised me to do.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: Have you read them since?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I don't have them, they're with the federal police, as I was asked to do by the federal police.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: Understood there are copies floating around, but that's fine.
PRIME MINISTER: I don't have one.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: OK, I understand. You have believed Eric Abetz immediately over Sue Hickey's allegations that he said dreadful things about Brittany Higgins: that he shamed her, that he blamed her for what happened to her and that he then said Christian Porter would be OK because his accuser was dead. You just believed him.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, Eric has completely denied that. I'm not a party to this conversation. Neither are you. Neither is anyone else. I mean, in what possible way could that be resolved?
TRACY GRIMSHAW: Brittany Higgins was called a lying power by Minister Reynolds.
PRIME MINISTER: It was disgraceful.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: Yes it was disgraceful. It's terrible that she even thought it was OK to say that in any circumstances, given the allegations that had been made and what had happened. What she knew had happened, allegedly, to Brittany Higgins. But she was called a lying cow when she went public because she...
PRIME MINISTER: And that was very out of character for Linda.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: But you see here, the pattern is that the women are always the liars. Brittany Higgins was a liar. Sue Hickey is the liar. Christian Porter's accuser has not told the truth either.
PRIME MINISTER: No, that is not the assumption. And I don't agree with your assessment of that.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: OK.
PRIME MINISTER: I'm simply saying that in this country people will make allegations and we have ways of dealing with it. I'm not seeking, I mean, I am not making that judgement about the truth of either statement.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: Do you understand why this issue has dogged the government for this past month? Why it has not blown over or gone away? Do you understand why?
PRIME MINISTER: You're right to suggest how this issue began with something truly and terribly shocking and I won't forget when I first learnt of this, it was truly shocking that this could take place here to a young woman who worked so hard in this place and with such talent. That wouldn’t matter whether a woman had talent or not, it could have happened to any woman. And in this place, over many years, people from all sides of politics have worked hard to address issues of violence against women, men and women in this place of good faith. Many actions when we think of what happened to Hannah Clarke not that long ago, just over a year ago, we look at these things and go how can such acts of violence take place? It's unthinkable. It's beyond our imagination. And here again with Brittany. So, you know, the fact that one woman is killed by an intimate partner every nine days, I don't know how many times I've heard that in this place. We all know that to be a fact, and these are people's lives. But what has become, I think, more crystallised in this last five weeks, as Brittany standing up has caused a very deep and confronting conversation in Australia, is we've gone way deeper. We've gone beyond the just the sheer shock of violent acts. And we're starting to deal with some real home truths.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: So are you saying really that the enormity of this issue that women deal with every single day has only become apparent to you in the last month?
PRIME MINISTER: No, I'm not. I recounted to you already the story of my own experience with my mum. And I could tell you what, my grandmother could probably tell worse stories as perhaps yours could too. What I'm saying, though, Tracy, is that we are now starting to get beyond this issue where we see it most, in the most, in the most violent and the most obvious forms. And I'm doing everything I can to try and understand this as best as I can. Now, may or may not have always got it as well as people would like me to, but I assure you, I'm doing everything I can to understand it as best as I can.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: If you are saying that you have been aware of the enormity of this issue preceding Brittany Higgins coming out a month ago, if you'd been aware of it...
PRIME MINISTER: At a different level, this has taken me deeper into this issue than I have appreciated before.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: Where have you been?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I think that's a bit unfair, Tracy, because I think there are many people across this country who... you live with it every day. You've lived with it, I'm sure your whole life, you have and I'm sure almost every woman. And this...
TRACY GRIMSHAW: You're not on an island or maybe you're in a bubble in Canberra, I don't know. But, you know, you're not on an island, you must know you've got a wife you love, you've got daughters. You've referenced them several times, how did you not know the depth of it?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, this is the difficult part of this. You understand it in a way that only you could. You know, I have a very different experience to yours. But I can tell you that for many Australians, this has been, it's been like a big wake up call. And it's been like a red light to say stop, look, listen. And that's what we're doing.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: It hasn't been a wakeup call to 52 per cent of Australians.
PRIME MINISTER: I agree with that, Tracy.
TRACY GRIMSHAW: Let me say something to you. Here's, I think a critical point and it was critical and a lightning rod for me when tens of thousands of women took to the streets around Australia, including here to protest, to say enough is enough to protest against rape and sexual assault and discrimination and marginalisation and the patriarchy and underpayment and all of those things, you said to them I'll meet a couple of you on my turf, on my time, on my terms or nothing. And then you said and my Minister for Women, she thinks what I think.--- break ---
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