I am a University student. In the same class as me, there is a Japanese female. She is 5 years older than me, but in the same year at University.
We sometimes speak to each other in a mix of English and Japanese. Her English is not perfect, but it is very friendly and so I spoke to her in Japanese as though she was also my friend. She has in the past called me 'karen-chan' which I thought was a sign of friendliness.
I recently recieved an email from this woman saying that she is extremeley worried about my Japanese. She says I should not go to Japan to work as I do not know how to speak Japanese. She said I am repeatedly rude to her as I speak to her in a 'chummy' manner, but she is older than me and I should show her more respect. I understand that she is older than me, but I didnt consider her to be my senior. We are at the same level at University, in the same class doing the same things. I didnt think I had to speak 'up' to her. Maybe this is my mistake.
I have friends in Japan who are older than me and they never said I was rude to them when I spoke to them. I am worried I have been unknowingly being rude to people.
I understand the politeness levels in Japan. I would never speak to my boss in the same way I do my friends. I understand that sometimes you have to use polite language even to friends. It all depends on the situation. I judge the situation using my Western brain. She says this is not good enough.
My question is: is she right? Even though she is the same academic level etc as me, should I have spoken up to her purely because she is older than me, even if she treated me as a friend in the past?
We sometimes speak to each other in a mix of English and Japanese. Her English is not perfect, but it is very friendly and so I spoke to her in Japanese as though she was also my friend. She has in the past called me 'karen-chan' which I thought was a sign of friendliness.
I recently recieved an email from this woman saying that she is extremeley worried about my Japanese. She says I should not go to Japan to work as I do not know how to speak Japanese. She said I am repeatedly rude to her as I speak to her in a 'chummy' manner, but she is older than me and I should show her more respect. I understand that she is older than me, but I didnt consider her to be my senior. We are at the same level at University, in the same class doing the same things. I didnt think I had to speak 'up' to her. Maybe this is my mistake.
I have friends in Japan who are older than me and they never said I was rude to them when I spoke to them. I am worried I have been unknowingly being rude to people.
I understand the politeness levels in Japan. I would never speak to my boss in the same way I do my friends. I understand that sometimes you have to use polite language even to friends. It all depends on the situation. I judge the situation using my Western brain. She says this is not good enough.
My question is: is she right? Even though she is the same academic level etc as me, should I have spoken up to her purely because she is older than me, even if she treated me as a friend in the past?
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コメント(13)
I do not understand why she said you were rude.
You two are in the same academic level, and are friends, so you do not need to speak up to her.
When I went to university, all of my classmates were more than 10 yaers younger than me.
At first they spoke up to me, but I did not like it.
I feel comfortable when my classmates talk to me like friends, like they do to other classmates.
I think most Japanese people do not mind if their younger friends talk to them like friends.
Your other Japanese friends, who are older than you, never said you were rude because they never felt so.
She maybe too plite person and that is why she felt that way.
Anyways, do not mind too much.
You two are in the same academic level, and are friends, so you do not need to speak up to her.
When I went to university, all of my classmates were more than 10 yaers younger than me.
At first they spoke up to me, but I did not like it.
I feel comfortable when my classmates talk to me like friends, like they do to other classmates.
I think most Japanese people do not mind if their younger friends talk to them like friends.
Your other Japanese friends, who are older than you, never said you were rude because they never felt so.
She maybe too plite person and that is why she felt that way.
Anyways, do not mind too much.
I've never been to japan and only know a few Japanese people at my university, but i think maybe it would be best to be as polite as possible when you first know someone, even people at your level. You obviously know that politeness is huge in japan though. I think your fine. I think most Japanese people in her situation wouldn't feel the same way, maybe she is just weird. Anyway i would just be as polite as possible unless they say it's okay to not be (the equivalent of saying "call me John not Mr. Roberts" in America/west.).
-Curtis
-Curtis
I wonder why she said that you were rude in some way.
You were in same course and you know her well, so you don't need to be too polite to her.
though, you need to be careful when you first meet Japanese who are older than you.
Let me think...If I were in her situation,I don't mind.
Never mind.
You were in same course and you know her well, so you don't need to be too polite to her.
though, you need to be careful when you first meet Japanese who are older than you.
Let me think...If I were in her situation,I don't mind.
Never mind.
Hi konnchiwa ^-^
I am only starting to learn Japanese but are you using the "te form" when talking to this girl? We have been told in unversity (daigaku) that we use the polite form in verbs, ending verbs with masu and when using the "te form" which is casually speaking.
I don't really understand this so I would appreciate it if someone could explain it to me. :-p
Arigato
I am only starting to learn Japanese but are you using the "te form" when talking to this girl? We have been told in unversity (daigaku) that we use the polite form in verbs, ending verbs with masu and when using the "te form" which is casually speaking.
I don't really understand this so I would appreciate it if someone could explain it to me. :-p
Arigato
Hi, you don't have to be worried! I'm Japanese, but I speak friendly to my friends who are older than me. And I don't care if my friends who are younger than me speak to me not politely. However, you should be careful! Some Japanese care about age stuff....even if the difference is only year.
She sounds like a bitch, quite frankly.
I wouldn't pay it too much heed - politeness levels in this language are a minefield and it's not worth the stress to always worry about whether you're using the right amount of 尊敬. Just try to find a middle road you're comfortable with (somewhere between always using ます-form and and always using abbreviated て-form and the like) and stick with that.
I wouldn't pay it too much heed - politeness levels in this language are a minefield and it's not worth the stress to always worry about whether you're using the right amount of 尊敬. Just try to find a middle road you're comfortable with (somewhere between always using ます-form and and always using abbreviated て-form and the like) and stick with that.
Don't worry, it all depends of the situations. Now I am back in college in Oregon, and all of my Japanese friends are like 10 years younger than me, but I do NOT care for "Keigo敬語". In fact, even in Japan, I was hanging out with my friends who were older than me but did not really use Keigo to some of them (but still showed some respects, though).
However, I sometimes feel offended when Japanese learners use "ka" forms, such as そうか？、大丈夫か？、元気か？、in stead of そう？、大丈夫？、元気？、etc. "〜か" forms can be used only between very close friends. Even between close friends, the use of Ka forms are limited. Otherwise, that's how only your boss can talk to you. Not even the seniors.
When my mom visited me from Japan, my American friends used 〜かforms to show friendliness to my mom, but it's not even a funny mistake. We understand that all these forms are extremely confusing to you guys, so we might not correct the mistakes and just show Japanese-smiles. However, imagine it was a business situation.....no excuse!
In general, when in doubt, just use polite forms!
However, I sometimes feel offended when Japanese learners use "ka" forms, such as そうか？、大丈夫か？、元気か？、in stead of そう？、大丈夫？、元気？、etc. "〜か" forms can be used only between very close friends. Even between close friends, the use of Ka forms are limited. Otherwise, that's how only your boss can talk to you. Not even the seniors.
When my mom visited me from Japan, my American friends used 〜かforms to show friendliness to my mom, but it's not even a funny mistake. We understand that all these forms are extremely confusing to you guys, so we might not correct the mistakes and just show Japanese-smiles. However, imagine it was a business situation.....no excuse!
In general, when in doubt, just use polite forms!
thanks for your comments. The girl who said this is a little strange, and I know that I cannot please everyone all the time, but, from now on, I will use polite Japanese to everyone regardless of how they speak to me and position/age etc until they say otherwise.
I just felt very cold speaking in polite japanese when she did not to me, but maybe she only spoke casual japanese to me because i am younger than her.
I hope other people can learn from my mistake as well.
I just felt very cold speaking in polite japanese when she did not to me, but maybe she only spoke casual japanese to me because i am younger than her.
I hope other people can learn from my mistake as well.
I've been in Japan for 2 years. The only problem I had with that was when I was a university student hanging out with Japanese "friends." Some people are just a little odd. Maybe she didn't know what she was saying in the email.
As for not being able to work in Japan due to your Japanese level, that is ridiculous. Your 自己紹介, which shows better Japanese ability than most of the foreigners I've met, states that you want to work in eikaiwa. In such an environment, you will (should) only be using English, so Japanese isn't even necessary. I work as an ALT, and as much as I would prefer to speak in Japanese, while on the clock, I know that it is part of my job to speak English to my coworkers; it's the only opportunity for native English conversation they have.
I don't know much about interning, especially as a foreigner. However, I wouldn't worry about it at all. You will have plenty of opportunity to polish your Japanese while you're working as a language instructor (not at the same time, of course).
As for not being able to work in Japan due to your Japanese level, that is ridiculous. Your 自己紹介, which shows better Japanese ability than most of the foreigners I've met, states that you want to work in eikaiwa. In such an environment, you will (should) only be using English, so Japanese isn't even necessary. I work as an ALT, and as much as I would prefer to speak in Japanese, while on the clock, I know that it is part of my job to speak English to my coworkers; it's the only opportunity for native English conversation they have.
I don't know much about interning, especially as a foreigner. However, I wouldn't worry about it at all. You will have plenty of opportunity to polish your Japanese while you're working as a language instructor (not at the same time, of course).
I also think that this japanese girl is a bit strange.
My experience ist that most japanese don't care if you don't speak polite japanese just because you are a foreigner..
(But I guess when you're working in Japan then it's a different case).
I rather think that she is rude to you. In my opinion a typical japanese person (even if you talked rude to her), would NEVER have said it that directly to you. Rather something like "What about studying a little more formal Japanese? It would really help you when you want to work in Japan".
My experience ist that most japanese don't care if you don't speak polite japanese just because you are a foreigner..
(But I guess when you're working in Japan then it's a different case).
I rather think that she is rude to you. In my opinion a typical japanese person (even if you talked rude to her), would NEVER have said it that directly to you. Rather something like "What about studying a little more formal Japanese? It would really help you when you want to work in Japan".
Actually, we use polite forms regardless of ages/positions, etc when we first meet someone new. This is why Japanese ask you about your age, job, etc....annoying, isn't it? I hate that too. So what we do is to use mixed forms of Keigo敬語（尊敬語sonnkeigo） and casual forms as we get to know each other, then see how it works. If they seemed offended, then we go back to Keigo. Yes, super high context.
I know this is strange and hard for most Japanese learners, but this is what we do when we meet someone (Japanese) new. However, we ALWAYS use polite forms in the business situations, unless you were a company owner talking to sales persons just to show your power by using casual forms and such (I do not recommend this, though). But this does not come from the friendliness.
Another exception is when you go to the stores or restaurants as a customer, but this depends on the situations too. As you knew already (I hope you do), the customers is Japan are treated like bosses or god so that stores would get "repeaters". This is part of the 本音と建前（ほんねとたてまえ) culture）, of course.
Goodluck on your career in Japan. Your Japanese seems great already, so don't worry about Keigo (I just saw your profile). You will get used to it. 敬語の使い分けは難しいけど、頑張って。あなたの日本語会話のレベルがプロファイルと同じなら、日本の会社で働いても大丈夫だと思いますよ。
I know this is strange and hard for most Japanese learners, but this is what we do when we meet someone (Japanese) new. However, we ALWAYS use polite forms in the business situations, unless you were a company owner talking to sales persons just to show your power by using casual forms and such (I do not recommend this, though). But this does not come from the friendliness.
Another exception is when you go to the stores or restaurants as a customer, but this depends on the situations too. As you knew already (I hope you do), the customers is Japan are treated like bosses or god so that stores would get "repeaters". This is part of the 本音と建前（ほんねとたてまえ) culture）, of course.
Goodluck on your career in Japan. Your Japanese seems great already, so don't worry about Keigo (I just saw your profile). You will get used to it. 敬語の使い分けは難しいけど、頑張って。あなたの日本語会話のレベルがプロファイルと同じなら、日本の会社で働いても大丈夫だと思いますよ。
Without saying that she is wrong, I certainly think that she lacks understanding. I am not Japanese, so I cannot argue against her on her own culture and language, but I think she was inconsiderate of your situation (i.e. a non-Japanese making efforts to learn Japanese, etc).
I lived in Japan and I also met Japanese who acted the same way. I've learnt that some it's just in their personality, others want to be friends with foreigners without understanding them... there could be many reasons. That can happen even if you always use polite speech. For example, a teacher once refused to speak to me, saying that I wrote a very rude e-mail to him. Actually, I wrote in a very polite way it contained nothing to arise his anger... It was even reviewed by a Japanese classmate before I sent it. So it gets confusing afterwards for a foreigner trying to learn from that lesson and know how to behave with Japanese.
My opinion is, some people are just like that. The best is not to be affected too much and continue to behave the way you think is best.
But to answer your question more directly: from my knowledge, if in the same grade as an older classmate (same goes for same position co-workers), the polite speech should be used even if you are friends (unless the person really prefers the opposite).
I lived in Japan and I also met Japanese who acted the same way. I've learnt that some it's just in their personality, others want to be friends with foreigners without understanding them... there could be many reasons. That can happen even if you always use polite speech. For example, a teacher once refused to speak to me, saying that I wrote a very rude e-mail to him. Actually, I wrote in a very polite way it contained nothing to arise his anger... It was even reviewed by a Japanese classmate before I sent it. So it gets confusing afterwards for a foreigner trying to learn from that lesson and know how to behave with Japanese.
My opinion is, some people are just like that. The best is not to be affected too much and continue to behave the way you think is best.
But to answer your question more directly: from my knowledge, if in the same grade as an older classmate (same goes for same position co-workers), the polite speech should be used even if you are friends (unless the person really prefers the opposite).
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