☆ENGLISH ONLY☆コミュのThe use of "-san" when addressing foreigners

I think it's a case if them being like "I speak or am aware of English convention and the san suffix is not used amongst foreigners so I'll not use it with them. Therefor showing my global cosmopolitan nature."

> Tensaibaka-san,
(oh, it sounds sooooo stupid to call your nickname with -san!)

I changed my job a year ago from a very domestic Japanese IT company to an US investment fund, and noticed the similar phenomenon.

Difference from your case is, in my office most of men call their non-Japanese colleagues with "-san" and many women (especially who have studied abroad) do the same withOUT "-san". Probably those who have experienced Western culture by living or studying abroad think without "-san" is natural.

I myself have been just following the rule of male majority.
It probably depends largely on the culture of the company, I suppose.

This is an interesting question for me as well, although I am a native Japanese. I have studied English at an English language school for several years. I haven't added -san to any English teachers because it was not common there.

In my limited experience of 3years in the English conversation class and stay for 3years in Australia, I have never used -san to non-Japanese people, although I don't mean to be rude to them. The reason is just because I am not used that suffix to non-Japanese people. The experience in English lesson seems to have influence on this. Therefore, I might have been used to call the name of non-Japanese people without -san.

Actually, I have a question related to this. I don't understand clearly about what situation native English speakers have to use those titles after people's name in their English conversation and it is recommended to Japanese people, who might have been taught not to add the titles to their non-Japanese teachers, when their students learn and believe so. Is that context just only when you address to people in a socially respected position? I have never used Mr. Ms, Mrs, to any non-Japanese people. Am I rude to them?

As for such long time spent in Japanese society and after getting higher position, tensaibaka-san's question sounds sensible and interesting.

In my opinion, there is some clumsiness when you change how you call others. It is like when you might feel some clumsiness when you start to call your friends' nick name at the first time. If some people who used to call me without -san in Japanese conversation suddenly turned to call me with -san, I would feel a bit sad. I would feel some distance to them. Would you feel in the same way?

In my English class, some older Japanese people than me sometimes attended in the same class, Although I did add san to their name outside of the classroom, which quite sounds to me natural However,, I clumsily called their name without -san in the classroom. As for the sense of Japanese people, I did it thoroughly and I even felt it is rude.

As a joke, use "dans" instead of san. Dans means "without" in French. You could be writing people off all day without letting them in on the joke.

I'm sure there are lots of people we'd all rather not have to work with.

>6
do you mean "sans" ? Like "Sanssouci" (without cares) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanssouci

>T-hey
You bring up a good point about what to add in English. In your example of Mr. Ms. etc, it would be polite to ask what you should call them. Some people prefer to be called Christopher instead of the short Chris, and others only want to keep things casual and strictly a first name basis. However, if we were speaking English, I would not expect you to add -san to my name, in fact I would find it kind of awkward. But if we were conversing in Japanese with another one of your friends, and you called your friend OO-san, and then just called me by my name without -san, doesn't that feel weird at all? Imagine if I were to address you in Japanese without the -san?

Why do Japanese add -san after a person's name? I was taught it was the polite and respectful thing to do. So why is it different when talking to a foreigner? Is it because we aren't Japanese? If you hear another Japanese person address a foreigner, or talk about a foreigner in Japanese, without adding -san, does it feel weird? Does it matter whether the foreigner is a Westerner or Asian? What if you were addressing a Korean foreigner in Japanese? Would you add -san?

Fun topic. I tend to be addressed with the -San prefix when people speak in Japanese to me, and just using my name when speaking in English. I always address my manager and senior colleagues using -San, as I'm the sole gaijin employee and enjoy that formality. When people have a request and ask in English, they tend to use -San.
Personally, I'd no idea that the diminuative -chan could be considered sekuhara. But I do sometimes kid around with one of my male coworkers and use -kun in informal settings.
I tend to enjoy being treated on a similar level--or at least have the same politeness levels used in my case; I do tend to show others the same respect...but wonder whether things would be different were I one of several foreigners. Dunno.

In my case, I add -san to everyone no matter to Japanese or foreigners when I'm in work. But for my private friends, I call them nick name or without san. Sometimes when I have to mail someone who I don't know whether he/she is supposed to call Mr., Ms. or etc., san is very useful for me. And also for Thai people, Khun is very useful as well:）
I think that I should add san , Mr. or etc. when I mail to someone whom I'm not familiar with in business situation. But if my relation to them is very frank, I don't need to care about adding something before/after their name. Especialy when speak English.

I sort of agree with Rome-Club. tenshibaka's boss respects your country's culture same as to you. And even if she calls you with san, you are not Japanese. If you don't like to be treated as a foreigner, you shoul work in 100% foreign company or in your own country. But what you explain above sounds your people treat you as one of their good members. So I can't quite understand why you complain of just san problem:(

>sicca
I'm not upset that my boss does it, I'm just trying to understand in a culture that values uniformity so much, why people would be different, or why there would be different standards. If I keep getting promoted, she can call me whatever she wants. But I guess non-uniformity in Japan is an entirely different subject huh?

I can understand why you wonder about this.

It's not like Japanese people are giving foreigners less respect, it's that they must know or realise how it works in foreign countries.

You want to be treated the same, and that's perfectly fair.

I'm sure it's not out of any sort of lack of respect on your colleagues part. Next time you have a drinking part with your colleagues mention this subject as a joke and they will catch on !

But for me, I still can't get used to being called -san. That is to say, I am used to it, but I don't really like it. It might be one of those "Mr. Smith is my father!" kind of things. It's just toooooooo formal.


At English schools in Japan you are taught not to call your teacher -san, because that is not what we would do in native speaking countries.

Foreigners have a kind of "get out of honorifics free" card., which is kind, but not always necessary.

たろう： >> When I speak Japanese I add -san(also to foreigner) but I never add -san when I speak English. Calling foreign person with -san in english sentence is intrusion of Japanese word in my opinion. I always use Mr./Ms..


I usually don't call people -san or use similar honorrifics in English either with the exception of my Japanese teachers. I did not take classes at my University, but I was employed by the Japanese teacher as a tutor for the Japanese classes; as such, I only ever spoke to her in Japanese. All of the kids taking her class also only call her Kato-Sensei instead of Ms. Kato, even if they are speaking in English, partly because I think we are so used to calling her by that name. From the first day of class, they are encouraged to use as much Japanese as possible, so they learn to call her Kato-Sensei. As such, it feels weird to us to say "Ms. Kato." I don't think it's just becasue she was Japanese, because in High School, my friends had Japanese teachers that were non-Japanese (one Chinese, and one white) and they still always said "Kimmel-sensei" and "Lu-sensei."

T-Hey: >>Actually, I have a question related to this. I don't understand clearly about what situation native English speakers have to use those titles after people's name in their English conversation and it is recommended to Japanese people, who might have been taught not to add the titles to their non-Japanese teachers, when their students learn and believe so. Is that context just only when you address to people in a socially respected position? I have never used Mr. Ms, Mrs, to any non-Japanese people. Am I rude to them?

Hmmm...The usage of Mr. Ms. Mrs. Mz.... I think it's used in formal situations, but not as often as -san in Japanese. For example, all kids in the US are taught to call their teachers, or their friends' parents as Mr. Smith, etc. When talking about the teacher, we would still use Mr. Mrs. etc. But when talking about someone's parents, unless we are speaking to a parent or another teacher, we would just say "Steve's mom" instead of Mrs. Smith.

WHen we meet another adult, we introduce ourselves with our first names, so we call and refer to each other that way. A doctor, senator, etc, we would NOT use "Mr" we would just say their title. For example, we always say Mayor Richard Daley, or just Mayor Daley for our Mayor in Chicago, we usually never say Mr. Daley. We say President Obama, not Mr. Obama (though sometimes we say Mr. President...) With a doctor, we'd say Doctor Reid, not Ms. Reid.

A boss would either call their subordinates by last name without Mr, or by first name (ex. If the employee's name is Bob Walker, they might refer to them as Bob, or as Walker, but Mr. Walker sounds weird depending on the situation. It seems using Ms. for female employees is still common, but for males usually just the last name without Mr. if they're not using first names).
However, when a teacher meets their students' parents, even though they are both adults, they would use Mr, Ms, etc, unless they are friends (then they'd probably use first names).

So were you rude when talking to people without using those titles? It depends on the situation. If it was someone you met in an informal situation, or at work, then it's fine if you don't use it. If you're speaking to a teacher in a classroom or someone's parents and not using it, then it could be considered rude, but...honestly, I think most people ignore it if it's a foreigner.

I am Japanese and tend to use -san in English as well
especially if I know he/she understands some Japanese.

>マル
With your explanation of how titles you use in your community in your country, I thought there were some similarity in the usage between titles and -san. But when you use titles, you might be in the situation where you have to show some certain respect to others with their name (for example, to other parents of your kids' classmates and the teachers ). The context in which you use them seems less often than in which Japanese people use -san after their names and it seems you differenciate the context in terms of the positions of people. Although I am not in those community, I have got a better understanding than before. I appreciate that.

In Japanese community for Japanese people, how Japanese people use -san after people's name is rather related to their ages when you see others. I think many Japanese people start to use -san for their older people around them in their school. As for me, in the secondary school, older students made the new comers know who is superior or has power, and that was the start of use of keigo and names with-san. It might happen because it is in closed community and that hierarchy seems to me the representation of so called 'seniority system' in Japanese companies. Older people, who have worked for a longer time are well experienced, can earn higher salary and have power in that type of companies.

Now, many Japanese companies don't seem to be the same as what or how they used to be. Younger employees take over higher positions in stead of other older employees and even teenagers can launch their business, which can change their usage of keigo. Some older employees have to use keigo and add -san to their younger employees, while some younger employees still use keigo to older employees in lower positions. And as for the nature of that Japanese people like to put that reality in the ambiguity and like to behave the same as someone next to you, we might use -san to anyone in the company. Of course I am not a sociologist or any specialist related to that issue, but that is just my own observation of Japanese society as a Japanese.

When Japanese companies in Japan get internationalized, the language you speak will be changing. The suffix (-san, -sama, sensei, shacho, bucho, kacho or whatever) can be used to any non-Japanese people in the companies as norm in their fashion. I will be ok to call anyone with any suffix, However, I might worry about calling someone who has many 's' sounds in their names(sa shi su se so, if it is in Japanese), which might make the pronouciation of their name with-san tough.

Very interesting topic, indeed!

Some people believe that treating everybody the same way is polite(e.g. using -san with everyone), others think that treating individual by acknowledging his/her background is polite (e.g. calling first name basis like westerners do).

I think either case is appropriate and respectful way to treat foreigners.

I guess what matter the most is how you say it, rather than what you say. Use of -san can be a sign of respect, and can be a sign of disrespect. Some people use it to create psychological distance. Use of 敬語 and those suffixes are very convenient when indicating what level of closeness you want with an individual.