☆ENGLISH ONLY☆コミュのwhen are they going to stop questioning this?

奈っちゃん＞＞

For one, I have many Japanese friends, thank you very much. Both Japanese and Japanese-American.

The point is, yes, you're right, the majority of the time, Japanese people mean no offense when they say those things. That makes almost no difference. If someone says something offense, but does not mean it to be offensive, that doesn't mean it wasn't offensive. There are a LOT of racist and prejudiced people in the US that don't realize they are racist or prejudiced, and go around saying a lot of offensive things without realizing it. That just means the person saying the offensive things should be told that what they are saying can be misconstrued as offensive, and hopefully they will modify their behavior so as not to offend people with the things they say in such ways.

As someone pointed out once, maybe the Japanese person MEANT it as a compliment, but it comes out sounding like "You have a really big accent." Or as someone else said, they don't compliment him when he says things correctly in Japanese, only when he makes errors. If you want to compliment that their Japanese has improved, then do so when they saying something correctly that you would not have expected, NOT when they mess up and have to talk in English, or when they mix up two very different words. You say that we as Americans should learn more about Japanese people to realize they're not trying to be insulting. That may be true, but I think Japanese people should also try to learn more about their friends to realize that even if they don't mean to be insulting, the person they talk to might not see it that way. You want us to understand you? Try understanding us.

If it would not annoy you to have those questions asked to you in America, that is all good and well for you. I have many friends of Chinese descent that were born and raised in America and speak nothing but English that have people go up to them frequently on the street and ask if they speak English. You wouldn't mind it? Good for you. The Asian-American Community in the US in general frequently speaks out quite loudly when things like this happen, no matter what the tone of the statement is. I once had a friend's boyfriend (when I told him I liked Japanese music), ask me if they had "real" musical genres like hip hop or pop, or if it was all "that chinky, traditional flute stuff." Sure, he didn't mean it in an offensive way, but it doesn't change the fact that what he said was horribly stupid and offensive.

I also have a native-american friend who is frequently asked if her family lives in a teepee. This is often by people who don't mean any harm and are just curious. Doesn't mean those people aren't being horribly ignorant and offensive. Are they bad people? No. BUT, they ARE being extremely close-minded and demonstrating they never bothered to learn about someone different from them, or they might realize that a native-american girl who grew up in the inner city of Chicago would probably NOT live in a teepee.

As for Tatemae, I didn't try to lecture you. But, me and my friends have had many, many, MANY problems and misunderstandings due to Tatemae. We also have an exchange student who is Korean, but has lived in Japan since the 3rd grade, and has a deep resentment to Japanese society because of this, among other reasons, and has repeatedly discouraged a few of our friends (especially the ones that can't speak Japanese) from going to Japan. You want to say I don't understand? Go ahead. Can't say that she doesn't though.

As for the chopsticks thing, when you go to your Japanese friend's apartment, and you make food together, and they give you chopsticks to eat it with and then stare at you like a circus animal, it's not cool. It's just not.

くり>> Like what?
Sorry, that was my fault, I was referring to Oharu, not you. Oops.

"Yet you seem to feel that though HE can say whatever he likes, in whatever tone he likes
Sorry, but that makes no sense to me at all. Nor to you I am sure."

No, of course not. But his ONLY insult in the opening post was "stupid," and it was a rant topic. I already said that I didn't feel that "stupid" was a fair word to use, but stated and still do state that he has some valid points. Do I like that he used stupid? Do I like all of the other things he said since then, hell no. But really, you all jumped on him for "stupid." I felt it was an overreaction to a rant that was not even all that heated. No, you don't have to be more selective with your wording towards him (I think he's earned it by now). But when talking to a foreigner whom you don't want to offend, given the fact that many foreigners obviously ARE offended by some of these things, then yes, maybe it's a good idea to be selective when talking to them. Say whatever you want to NPO, who I feel has gotten more and more offensive the more he has posted.

"I don’t know what this has to do with."
I said that because I felt you were insinuating that he, or other people were being told the thing they found offensive once or twice, and then immediately running to their computer to post. You're all right, if someone says something like that to you, not meaning to be offensive and you take it the wrong way, get over it. But if it happens THAT many times, you're bound to reach your limit at some point. For example, if you speak to someone in Japanese (and it's perfectly understandable), and they a) speak back to you in English, or b) speak to your Japanese friend and ignore you (like 奈っちゃん or someone else mentioned), yeah, the first few times you might just brush it off. But eventually, it's going to start to piss you off. Though obviously those are quite a bit more inflammatory than someone complimenting you.

"Yet it doesn’t make it any more valid than those people here telling him he is wrong either. And their tone was no worse than that of the poster."

Here I'm going to have to disagree with you. Calling someone a heartless bastard because they called someone stupid, is NOT the same tone. By now he deserves it. I still wouldn't call him heartless, cause I'm not sure how that applies (and I misused it myself cause I can be dumb sometimes, lol), but whatever. My problem is more with people saying "It's not offensive, you're just sensitive and you should understand us," when it seems they're not making any effort to understand people who DO think it's offensive.

If your answer is “never” then who exactly doesn’t get what?

Of course I wouldn't say that. However, that doesn't mean I have to lie and say I can't wait to meet their lovely family. When people ask me what they think of their new haircut, or their clothes, I don't lie to them to make them feel better, because I know they're going to leave the house and get laughed at by other people. My friend recently cut her hair too short, and asked what I thought about it. My response: "You look like a butch lesbian, and I liked it better before." (btw, she IS a lesbian, but doens't like looking butch. So why she cut her hair in a boy's style, I have no idea.).

If someone shows me their ugly family, I just look at it, and say "oh." That's it. I have no reason to offend their family, but I'm not going to lie to make them feel better either. If they ask me for my honest opinion, then yes, I would give it to them. Would I say "Your wife's a fucking hippo?" no. But I might say "I'm sure your wife is a nice person, since you wouldn't have married her otherwise, but I find it ironic that you married someone who is overweight given the fact that you call people who are less overweight disgusting fat bitches." Most of my friends practice this kind of honesty with each other and we respect each other for it. We're currently yelling at our friend because she allows this girl she detests to freely enter her room uninvited and never turns her away, because she "doesn't wanna be mean." She needs to be honest with this girl she hates because this faux-kindness isn't helping anyone. She could say something like "I don't like it that you always invite yourself over to my room without asking. It would be nice if maybe you asked instead of coming over EVERYDAY uninvited and imposing yourself on me, because sometimes I just want to be alone, or with [name of friend] " So to re-answer your question, Never would I say that. But I wouldn't come out and flat out lie to make them feel better either, because that helps no one.

トランス： Okay, I'm going to have to agree with the other two on this one. If you're going to continue to post here, please at least make your posts relevant to the discussion instead of just spamming.

The chosticks comments....not annoying just old. Now gaijin eating well with CHINESE chopsticks, thats noteworthy.... I mean those are tough.
The "Nihongo jyozu dane" its only annoying when its used as a stock phrase. Like if I say
"sumimsen..." but before I can continue the person smiles and says "your japanese is good."

really...this has happened a couple times. Thats pretty silly.

Hey マルsan, you said to 奈っちゃんさん the following:

"That makes almost no difference. If someone says something offense, but does not mean it to be offensive, that doesn't mean it wasn't offensive. "

You say this, right?
Well, RPO probably didn't mean to be offensive by ranting about this topic but, as a matter of fact, he kinda did.

Oh, yeah and also, you said to ME (mistaking me as くりsan)

"Yes, yes he would come up with questions like that. In fact I believe the very first post he made was THIS IS A RANT. Which, generally in a rant, you say things out of anger that you would not normally say or do not normally mean. "

So then, should we say in the very beginning of our sentences, that "THIS IS A COMPLIMENT AND NOT AN INSULT" when we want to compliment or express that we are happy to see non-japanese ppl speaking japanese?

If "YES" is your answer, then we might as well shut the f*ck up, run away from non-japanese at first sight and be unfriendly forever; this is what you seem to be saying to me!

Kuri>>:

Okay, I agree that in general calling a nation stupid is less reasonable than calling one person heartless. But I still feel that calling one person heartless for calling a nation stupid does not make sense. If he had said something like "all Japanese people should be killed" or something like that that is cruel, then yes, heartless would apply. But saying "stupid," regardless of whether he says it to one person, a nation or the entire world, doesn't not make him heartless to me. A jerk, maybe.

Oharu: You're unintentionally helping me prove my point. 奈-chan says we should understand that Japanese people are not trying to offend us, but at the same time isn't understanding that maybe NPO wans't trying to be offensive (whether he was or not, I don't know).

On the other hand, I NEVER said that no one had a right to be offended by what he said. In fact, in the same post you quoted, I specifically said he's gotten more and more offensive the more he posts.


Yes, I realize that I meant to say that to you. That's why I said in the first line in my other post: "Sorry, that was my fault, I was referring to Oharu, not you. Oops. " Also, please go back and reread my posts. Not once did I say anyone should say "THIS IS A COMPLIMENT." That would be like starting every sentence with "THIS IS A SENTENCE." What I actually said was that given the fact that obviously many foreigners take offense at what you consider to be an innocent compliment, you should be aware of this and be more careful about how you say it.

For example, As Archangel, myself and other people have said, saying "日本語お上手ですね。"when the foreigner has not even said one complete sentence yet, does not seem like a compliment, because you obviously have not heard enough to be able to tell whether or not they are good at it. Also, talking with them normally and then ONLY complimenting them when they make errors (instead of when their Japanese is actually good), does not seem like a compliment, because obviously you are complimenting their "good" Japanese at a time when their Japanese is not correct.

I am not saying, nor did I say that Japanese people should NEVER compliment someone, and if that is what I seem to be saying to you, then you did not carefully read all of my posts. I am saying that you should compliment someone's Japanese when it actually deserves to be complimented. If you are surprised to hear a foreigner speak Japanese, that's fine. But if all they said was "私はアメリカ人です。" you haven't really heard enough to judge that their Japanese is good or not, and therefore it can sound patronizing.

マルsan>>

Well, because RPO created such a topic full of his own bias, it came across as offensive to some of the viewers, one of them being me.
So too bad for him.
If he wanted to rant about this topic, he should of done it elsewhere or should have been more careful with his words.

Now, I see your point. I am a japanese. Yes, I do give compliments (what you've been referring to as "TATEMAE") but it comes purly from my heart becuase I am overwhelmed to see non-japanese ppl interacting with japanese culture. I really do! But if it makes some people feel uncomfortable, like as if they are being insulted, I will be more careful.

98

well did you read my post? don't think you did. but don't tho, don't waste your time.

since the beginning, all you did was trying to speculate about my personality and issues i may have, which i absolutely don't. i am just a normal japanese guy, so you can stop assuming now.
if you can't bear it, just move on.

99

well, we are not supposed to say anything mean to anybody like an unspoken rule, aren't we
but i do sometimes.

i was at the city hall today to register for the national insurance service. and was asked where i was past 10 years.... unfortunately, he did say "ja- eigo pera pera nandesune!", which i wasn't expecting from a city hall clerk at all. well, i am glad it wasn't at least a question, but i sill don't think that's unnecessary.

100

yes, that's correct, do i deserve to be called hearless fudge packer? don't think so.
i am definitely difficult or a jerk, but not heartless. people are overreacting to this "stupid" too much it seems.

101

why can't i do it here? do we have to be all nice and friendly on mixi?
nobody is really friendly on this thread anyway, why care?

102

i should've said ignorant instead of stupid. after all years, it does seem more ignorant than before.

おはる：: True. I do think he should ahve chosen his words more carefully, or at least further developed his claims so as not to seem as offensive.

For the record, I am not trying to say that every time you compliment someone is tatemae. That does not make sense. Nor am I saying that Tatemae only refers to giving compliments. Obviously it is a more complicated subject than that, and it's not the best example of tatemae, either. What I mean is that if someone says 始めまして、私はアメリカ人です。and the first thing that comes out of your mouth is 日本語お上手ですね, well...like I said, you haven't heard enough to be able to tell if their Japanese is good, right? Therefore, you may not be trying to be offensive, but I think that no one can honestly believe that someone's Japanese is good just from hearing one sentence. In other words, if that's all they said, then you cannot honestly believe yet that their Japanese is good, and you are just saying the compliment, but cannot actually mean it yet, until you hear them actually speak more. So just throwing out the compliment when you don't mean it because 'that's what you're supposed to do,' is something I consider to be a form of Tatemae, even if it's not an extreme example.

Of course, just because you compliment someone, it doesn't mean you are lying. I just feel that in a case like that if someone compliments skills they haven't seen or heard yet, it kind of is. Or if you compliment someone when their Japanese IS bad. Like maybe a beginner or something, It's cool if you want to encourage them, but you shouldnt' say their Japanese is good if they can't even form a complete sentence...it doesn't seem like an honest compliment when they know they're not good yet, lol.

トランス: Yeah, I get how Japanese people could get offended at that. I'm American, so I hear from foreigners (and Americans) all the time that Americans are all ignorant and stupid. Does it annoy me? Hmmm...honestly, not so much. But that's just because I've met enough ignorant Americans to understand why people think Americans are all uneducated and culture-lacking. We haven't exactly been giving off the best impression internationally in recent years, either.

＞マル、

Oh so you know that we Japanese mean no offense when saying stuff like that.
And yet you let that get you like that??

Has it ever occured to you that the problem is not just us, but also you??
You just can't stand it when you think someone looks down on you, can you?

You claim that you are familiar with our culture, and apparently you have heaps of Japanese friends, and yet you let that get you.
Jeeeez, I really don't know what to say.
It must be quite exhausting to be you, aye.
I'd just smile, say "Thanks" and depending on the relationship with that person, I might try to say something like "That nice compliment can be taken as offensive by some people, just FYI".

But unlike you, I do not believe that's something I should TEACH them, that's just for them to REALISE, totally up to their choice.

I am no way near saying Americans should understand more about us, hell no. You have given all of us a bloody long lecture on what the people are like there, and that alone is enough for me to keep my expectations low. Thanks.
I am just saying, if someone is that keen on learning more about another culture, say the Japanese one like you are, then he should know better than just to jump to the conclusion and take an innocent compliment like Nihongo Jozu desune as an insult. If it bugs you, why can't you just tell him/her, in a nicest way possible, that it could offend some people and simply, let it go?

Being a jerk about it and giving a bloody tedious lecture here really shows how close-minded you, yourself are, I think.
If you'd like to respond, please make your point clearer and your post shorter.
Gracias.

奈っちゃん,

1. No, I can't say that I am particularly happy when people look down on me for no reason.
2. What I say is "You haven't even heard enough of me speaking to be able to say that, so I'd appreciate it if you stopped telling me what you think I want to hear, because it's like you're lying to my face."
3. I never, never, not even once, said we should teach all Japanese people this. In fact, what I said was that they should be more careful about what they say and realize that some people might get offended. You're putting words in my mouth. I am merely explaining my position in this thread because we're having a discussion about this same topic. Maybe you missed the point of that.
4. If you didn't say Americans should understand about it, then that was my mistake. However, now, you're being intentionally offensive, and ironically, are saying Xenophobic things. "oh, I would never want to go to Americ...Now that I know what the people are like that alone is enough to keep my expectations low (keep, as in they probably were already low, and 'is enough,' because you seem to have other reasons). Also, I did not give a lecture on what Americans are like, I compared between ignorant Japanese people and ignorant Americans.
5. I am just saying, that if someone says your Japanese is good and you haven't even said a complete sentence yet, they're lying. Ironically, you call me close-minded even though I have conceded several points, while you refused to admit that anyone who didn't agree with you had a valid point.
6. If you have problems with reading my arguments because of the length, take your own advice and get over it. This is a discussion forum.

In any case, it seems you and I will never agree on this topic, so I am done here. Looking forward to discussing other topics with you guys.

> マルさん

Yes, you are right. You and I will not agree on this, why waste more time, right.
Thanks for making ur points clearer and shorter as requested though, was nice of you.

I have never thought that people from overseas felt offensive when you heard those kinds of compliments.
So, I might have given them, not knowing that.
However, it seems as if Japanese people wouldn't try doing any harm to you.
I know they just help communicate better.
That doesn't mean to look down on you.
You might get upset everytime you hear them, but it's our own culture.
We don't have any bad feeling which we hide.
So, you don't have to be irritated.

It seems both side have taken a compromising way so there should be no more harm done. This topic helped me learn that serously there were many various kinds of opinions and perspectives not to mention pros and cons.
Learning a different language can be a double-edged sword. So we shouldn't be too careful to use one:)

To the OP.

Yes, even though Japan has one of the world's largest economies, many
Japanese are still scared/amazed/clueless of anything foreign.
Especially at foreigners that speak Japanese. So naturally
you get the "Wow your Japanese is really good!". You have no reason
to get annoyed at a compliment but next time you
get annoyed, just know this...

...this is a good thing.

The Japanese seeming inability (as a whole) to be adaptive to foreign
environments allows foreigners who speak Japanese a lot of
opportunities. Moreso than in a lot of other countries.
This will change soon as more young people that are well-traveled
gain power, but it will remain so for at least our lifetime.

quick note (mainly for japanese people):

there's nothing wrong with complimenting someone on their japanese. many of us work hard at it and appreciate the encouragement.

generally speaking, if someone has a problem with a compliment, it's a personal problem, so dont worry about it.

also, its not true that all foreigners who dont speak japanese are lazy. learning japanese takes concentrated effort, some people would rather concentrate on other things. some of the hardest working people i know dont speak any japanese.

> poetryさん

exactly. i totally agree.

> hijodeganasさん

I disagree. If you live in Japan for an extended period and cant string even a broken sentence together you're lazy.

Maybe not in all aspects of your life. But that person is probably content to let their Japanese partner do all things Japanese for them!


My Japanese is poor, but at least I try.

Not to offend you, but it sounds like you're ready to go home. and you probably should. We don't need any more people making Japanese hate all of us foreigners here just because you're sick of Japan. It's tough enough here without someone intentionally causing problems. I'm not trying to be mean, but you really should step back and evaluate your situation. If you don't like it, why stay? There are tons of places to go on this Earth and a any number that are better than Japan in some way. Get out and explore.

Japanese people say these supposed annoying compliments because not many foreigners speak Japanese well.. or at all for that matter. I can't really see why it bothers you. Sure you've been here 10 years, but how many other foreigners have been? The percentage is quite low. No one is going to assume that you've been here that long.. They're just trying to be nice, so chill out. Don't you ever tell someone they're really good at English? It's the same concept. Sure things are a bit frustrating being treated differently sometimes, but the simple fact is that we are different, Good luck hope life gets better for you.

> Ｊ美ーさん

lack of interest in one particular aspect is hardly definitive of one's character.

personally, if i were working 10+ hours a day, 6-7 days a week, i would hardly call myself lazy, even if i had neither the time, energy or inclination to study japanese.

lack of interest does not equal laziness.

If someone were living longterm in a foreign country, that could be indicative of an interest.

Im not saying not studying a language means you're lazy, but if you actually LIVE in that country but can't be bothered to try to learn, you are, in my eyes (and often in the eyes of those living in that country), lazy.

I don't know about lazy, but to me it's a matter of respect.
Even when I travel to places for a short period, I try
to learn some phrases. Out of respect.
If I'm going to live there an extended period, I'll
certainly do my best to learn the language.

Just my 2 cents.

ahh~ Sometimes i get "Nihongo Jouzu desu ne " too
n i no that they dont really think my japanese`s Jouzu haha
But still i take that as a encouragement

> まぁアレださん

I'll agree with this. not everyone comes here because they love the country. a lot of people get sent here by their companies or just want to make money. again, i'd hardly equate lack of desire with laziness.

however, i think it would be respectful to learn the language of the country you live in.

> まぁアレださん，

I really like your 2 cents
Totally agreed...I went to Thailand on holiday about 2 years ago, and I didn't even know how to thank people in the language. What an arrogant and ignorant bitch!
Luckily the Thai people I met there were very nice and keen on teaching me a few lines here and there, so I learnt a little during the stay.


I'd definitely try to make time and learn the language of the country I live in, regardless of what brings me there. That's out of respect for sure, and also to make my life there more fun and hopefully, easier;-)

>128 奈-san

>>One of my Professor was quite stubborn, and never let me speak in British-English during English conversation class. Intead, He shoudted to me to speak using English words used in USA.

Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.
That is by far one of the DUMBEST things I have ever heard. I am sooooo sorry that you had to go through that insanity.
This person is definitely in no position to call himself a professor.
You shoulda asked him, in your beautiful Brit English, if he would like your pencil up his bloody ARSE.

I wonder what this "prof" guy is up to, with the TOEIC taking up various accents and putting a less emphasis on his favourite American English???
One of my fellow teachers was talking about how he might start teaching his students some Indian English as well as other kinds of English, for obvious economic reasons. And I really think his students are lucky to have someone like him as their teacher/mentor.