☆ENGLISH ONLY☆コミュのThoughts on same-sex marriage

As a heterosexual female I've NEVER seen anything wrong with same sex marriage. If two people are in love they deserve the right to make it last.

As a person from a family of two generations of interracial relationships resulting inchildren, I can relate. You have no idea how many people tried to split my grandfather and grandmother up because in the 1940's he chose to devote his life to a Japanese woman. My parents luckily had less outside problems in their relationship and marriage, but despite I can understand the oppression homosexual couplesare subjected to.

Love knows no bounds. Love knows no race or gender.

Who is anyone to deny someone the right to love and to have the legal rights and benefits that two people who want to devote their lives to each other should recieve?

Kimi (#141),

>> I think it was Benjamin Franklin or another founding father who said that
>> any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security
>> deserves neither and will lose both.

Yep. :)

Hmm...
TBH,
I don't have any thoughts on same sex marriages. It's supposed to be a free world therefore they should be allowed to do as everyone else.

Maybe it's because I spent most of my life in LA, but I am stunned
at the ignoarance in this thread.

People, it's 2008. It's getting easier and easier for gays to live
without hiding. They will continue to do what they have every
right as human beings to do.

Polygamy argument: IMO, I don't condone it but let them if they want.
Now if I can be so ignorant myself, I gotta say I don't get the polygamy guys. All the polygamist cults I see on tv has women dressed in
colonial wear.

If I had multiple wives, it'll be cosplay every day up in that house.
With schoolgirl night 3x week.

# 127 Inquisitor… and a question for others

I can only assume, Inquisitor, that you have missed my questions at post #130 (rather unlikely) or you have realised some of the fallacies in your arguments and decided to defend them no longer. If you are simply busy at the moment with other things, please just let us know and I’ll await your response.

In the absence of any plausible argument from Inquisitor, it seems like there has been no real case presented here for denying lesbians and gays civil marriage rights, and on the whole there has been quite a positive response to the concept of full rights for marriage for same-sex couples, I think. That’s a very encouraging sign for the future, I think, in terms of people living harmoniously together.

When, does anyone imagine, would same-sex marriage get recognition in Japan? Ever? Never? One day? What time frame?

It seems to me like Japan will get same-sex marriage as soon as people start seriously asking for it. My experience has been that Japanese are among the most accepting of gays that I've ever met. Just look at all the open gay and transvestite celebrities - several huge stars have been out for longer than I've been alive.

# 149 fenomas

I guess that begs the question. If there appears to be open acceptance of homosexual orientation, why do the vast majority of Japanese gays remain in the closet?

I guess people are not going to seriously ask for it from the closet.

Although a handful of celebrities, and some people who either are, or appear to be, gay are sometimes seen on television, many gays complain that they usually only represent stereotypes and caricatures of gay people on television, usually there to provide humour, and that there is very little serious discussion about lesbian, gay and transgender issues in the media.

So, I guess it’s not surprising that Japanese civil rights laws do not provide any protection from discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity. I was just wondering if others see any improvement in this situation on the horizon at this time. There seems to be a bit of a contrast compared with the level of political and social activism of so-called “gay lobbies” in other developed countries.

150 チャン

That's the thing, I don't think Japanese gays are in the closet. Not compared to the US anyway. No objective data on that, it's just been my sense.

I seem to remember reading that in some Japanese gay couples, the older one adopts the younger. I think the idea was that it provided many of the same legal rights as marriage. But I really can't remember where I heard that, and now that I type it it seems unlikely...

As for civil protections, JP law doesn't provide any protections for nationality either, does it? Or disabilities etc. I thought Japan was behind the curve for most of that kind of thing. I'm no expert though.

I see this thread...and I lol.

And yet, we talk about JAPAN having some bigotry/xenophobia issues...

To quote commedian Doug Stanhope:
【If marriage didn't exist, would you invent it? Would you go: "Baby, this shit we got together? It's so good we gotta get the government in on this shit. We can't just share this commitment 'tweenst us. We need judges and lawyers involved in this shit, baby. It's hot!"】



In all seriousness, marriage is intended to be a commitment between TWO individuals. NOT the whole community or world. Are people that bereft of activities and life endeavors they need to comment on everyone else's?

im not against gay marriage but i think it natural for people to find gay people weird (for a word キモい in japanese).
and people who are gay should understand it. why would these non-gay people understand gay people? it seems to be impossible.

#153 anthroptics

> In all seriousness, marriage is intended to be a commitment between TWO individuals. NOT the whole community or world. Are people that bereft of activities and life endeavors they need to comment on everyone else's?

In all seriousness, are you kidding? When was marriage ever meant NOT to include “the whole community”? That has ALWAYS been the point of marriage. Marriage is a PUBLIC event, not a private one. It has always been thus. And it has always included some element of property regulation.

LOL… I really enjoyed the quote from the comedian… really funny… I do like that kind of humour…

But lets’ see, if we apply it to someone like you, a female… OK, let’s keep the lawyers and judges totally out of your relationship… let’s just suppose for the sake of the comedian’s theory…

You (a representative female) meet a guy, fall in love, decide to live with him… Over the next 5 years you end up having a couple of babies and you stay at home to look after them… he has a great job and lots of money coming in, so no problems… he is able to put down a deposit on a house, buy a car, buy lots of stuff for the house, and put away $15,000 in the bank over this time.

Unfortunately, at the end of 5 years you feel he is too controlling and a bit of a bully and you have had enough of it and decide you want to break up with him. He says, OK, and that the house, the car, the $15,000 in the bank are all his, and he says the children are all yours, goodbye, have a nice life!

You say, well I don't want any lawyers or courts involved in my private relationship, it’s just between him and me, so that’s the end of that. He takes all of the house, all of the bank balance, the car, and all of the furniture, etc. because he says it was all his money that paid for them, and you take the 2 children and look after them until they have grown up.

You may say, no, not you, you’d never get into this situation… but many women do something similar to this. You are advocating that this is a private matter, and that they should not seek anything for themselves or their children out of such a situation. It’s up to them as private individuals only. It’s not the business of the whole community or the world. It’s their business. Again, are you serious?

#155 チャン

You missed my point entirely. I'm not even going to bother to restate.

The reasoning behind marriage is to protect the people within the marriage... HOWEVER. It's no one's business to comment on anything within it or judge the situation unless it harms someone within it or something is totally awry. If two consenting adults are together, in love and all is well and good, I see no issue with gay marriage.

# 154 Ryo

> im not against gay marriage but i think it natural for people to find gay people weird (for a word キモい in japanese).

キモい　‘kimoi’ （気持ち悪い）is more than ‘weird’, it means ‘disgusting’, ‘gross’, ‘sickening’, etc.

I don't think it’s ‘natural’ for straight people to find gay people ‘kimoi’, but it’s perfectly understandable, especially if you have not had much close contact with any gay people.

I don't understand why, in today’s modern world, Japanese, even young Japanese, have to bow at each other all the time. They do it all the time here in Australia. We non-Japanese never do that in Australia, but I don't think we are lacking respect for each other. However, I am not advocating bringing in a law in Australia prohibiting bowing between consenting Japanese adults.

> and people who are gay should understand it. why would these non-gay people understand gay people? it seems to be impossible.

Personally, I don't see what is so difficult about it, but it is plain to see that many people cannot understand a person loving someone of the same sex. That’s fine. That’s not a problem, if you are not telling them they should change, or that they should have fewer rights because of their sexual orientation. What you think about it is your business. So, no problem.

I think natto (納豆) is disgusting (キモイ). So what? I don't mind if you eat it.

(Natto is fermented soybeans, for anyone who does not know.)

#157 チャン

It sounds like we have the same view... and yet we were debating, haha. Amusing.

# 156 anthroptics

> Are people that bereft of activities and life endeavors they need to comment on everyone else's?

In all fairness, you are saying here to stop talking about the subject as a whole, since it followed on from a quote from a comedian saying keep lawyers and courts out of marriage altogether… I can’t read your mind to know otherwise.

And yes, we are not meant to be commenting on people’s private relationship, just the legality of it for same-sex couples. The topic here is not the private relationship between married partners, but the fact that marriage in some jurisdictions is forbidden to same-sex couples.

So you are not suggesting that talking about people’s lack of rights is a waste of time? That we should find better things to do with our time?

I hope not, because I would think what WOULD be a waste of time is to take the time to comment on people that you believe are wasting their time.

But sarcasm aside, you did seem to me in post #153 to be rebuking people like me for discussing this topic. I am personally pleased if that was not your intent. And, I agree with you when you say: “If two consenting adults are together, in love and all is well and good, I see no issue with gay marriage”.

# 158 anthroptics

> It sounds like we have the same view... and yet we were debating, haha. Amusing.

Yeah, so don't take any offence from my comments. No offence is intended.

#159 チャン

Oh no! By no means did I intend that! I definitely feel that ones rights or lack thereof should be a topic of discussion.

I'm sorry, it's late here and rereading my post my point WAS misleading.

I actually only included the humor to lighten the mood here... Because to be quite frank, some of these posts are ridiculously dismal.

All in all I think that by being against the union of a couple in love all because of a little manner like their sexuality-- something that affects only THEM (two consenting adults in love), not the onlooker-- simply proliferates they type of ignorance we're supposed to be fighting against and in they end they not only mess things up for themselves, but for others.

# 161 anthroptics

> I actually only included the humor to lighten the mood here... Because to be quite frank, some of these posts are ridiculously dismal.

I'm all for that... so long as no one is denying that this is a VERY SERIOUS topic for some people denied what they see as their right to marriage... They do not have the luxury of just forgetting about the topic... It affects their life in a very profound way... and I am sure (at least now, hehehe) that you would not disagree that it is important to some people and no laughing matter... and I personally take it seriously when someone speaks out against the rights of others unfairly... but, i loved the joke, thanks... i am all for lightening things up. Good on ya! (as we say here in Australia, hehe)

#151 fenomas

I’m a bit surprised by your view. Don’t you think Japan is one of the most conformist societies there is? I love Japan and have studied the language and culture since I was 13 (a long time, hehehe)… As a group-oriented culture, rather than an individualistic one, I would have thought it follows that being “different” or a minority is not an easy thing.

I think this is reflected in the Japanese concept of “uchi” and “soto” (on the “inside”, or the “outer”), the concept that reinforces denial of rights to outsiders (ie foreigners, outsiders, ‘gaijin’ – where the kanji for “gai” is otherwise read as “soto” – ‘outside people’).

> That's the thing, I don't think Japanese gays are in the closet. Not compared to the US anyway. No objective data on that, it's just been my sense.

Well, you and I differ strongly there. I believe the VAST majority of gays in Japan are in the closet. I will have to get back to you on more objective data, cos I gotta go out in a moment… but my personal experience, which is all you gave so far, and comparing that to yours, is below:

I should first say that I, personally would consider being “out” as speaking openly and directly about your sexuality to at least the following as a minimum: your immediate family (father, mother, siblings), and to at least 25% of your friends, and to at least 25% of your workmates.

(I put this forward just as a working definition for MY comments, no-one else’s, not as a definition that should be accepted by others.)

I do know of some “out” gay Japanese, but they are few. Of the more than 25 gay Japanese friends that I have and know their circumstances, I find that none of them has “come out” according to my definition above…

A few of them have told their mothers, none has told their father, a few more have told at least one of their siblings (usually a sister), and only a small number have told their straight “best friend” (a couple of them that I know who did that have lost that friend as a result of doing this), only a few have told any straight workmates in an office or factory environment (it’s different if they work in places like gay bars, or as airline stewards, in the ballet, theatre, etc. as you might expect).

Even the Almighty Wikipedia says something to the effect (if I remember rightly) that many gay and lesbian people in Japan marry in order to help conceal their sexuality.

> I seem to remember reading that in some Japanese gay couples, the older one adopts the younger. I think the idea was that it provided many of the same legal rights as marriage. But I really can't remember where I heard that, and now that I type it it seems unlikely...

Yes, adoption laws have for centuries been used in Japan for property rights in all sorts of situations that would not be the norm in other societies, where an adult adopts another adult. But adoption is in essence a sort of one-way, not equal protection, and by no means a real substitute for same-sex marriage rights. So, I don't think it is relevant personally. And it by no means implies that the parties to the adoption have made their sexual orientation public knowledge.

> As for civil protections, JP law doesn't provide any protections for nationality either, does it? Or disabilities etc. I thought Japan was behind the curve for most of that kind of thing. I'm no expert though.

Yeah, I agree with you on this count… hehehe… hence my question asking people if they had a sense when the Japanese might catch up on same sex marriage.

#162 チャン

Oh, believe me-- I'm far from thinking this issue is a laughing matter, and I'm 100% behind it being considered a right and just in the law (as it should be) for homosexual couples to get married.

Two of my best friends are gay males and one of my close friends is a lesbian. I want my friends to have the rights they deserve... Though where I live, civil unions were passed a while ago and I think we're making headway for marriage to come next, even if it takes a while.

I never intended for the joke to belittle the situation at hand-- it was more or less a poke and prod at marriage itself, not a particular "type" as to attempt to bring good spirits back, even if only just a bit. Humor is said to soften a hard heart.

#151 fenomas

Further to my response to you at #163

I need to correct myself… As I drove away from home after writing post #163 to go and have a meal… I remembered that I did have one Japanese gay friend who came out to his whole family and his friends at school when he was 15 or 16. At 17 he left home to live with a French lover (much older) in Paris, but returned home again after several months away to take up high school. He had many fights at home and at school over his sexuality. It is my impression that the generation currently under 20 years of age are more likely to come out than older Japanese. Just my observation alone though.

I also know several gay Japanese who live totally “out” lives here in Australia, but are not known as gay to their families or most of their old school friends, etc. back in Japan.

Here’s a quote I have just found in Wikipedia that sums up my impressions of the repression of gay/queer lifestyles and same sex marriage in Japan:

“As a represented minority in a country where mainstream conformity is promoted and preferred, Queers in Japan are ostracized and stereotyped by society… [snip] …The suppressed expression of self is further expounded by the cultural practices revolving around family and marriage. The custom of living at home until marriage presents restrictions of Queer life in Japan; the belief that one’s family will shame and disown a child who comes out as Queer represses these children into living within a different frame of existence by forcing them to behave in the same manner as a heterosexual child. Along with this suppression, the lack of private space restricts the expression of feelings and self identity during times of growth, which in turn restrains attempts at finding love in the Queer community. Along with these family issues the government’s refusal to acknowledge same-sex marriage forces Queers into an outcast position by society’s preference for marriage and family to which Queers are refused access.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_Minorities_in_Japan

#164 anthroptics

> I never intended for the joke to belittle the situation at hand-- it was more or less a poke and prod at marriage itself, not a particular "type" as to attempt to bring good spirits back, even if only just a bit. Humor is said to soften a hard heart.

I think you have expressed yourself really well, and made your position very clear, thanks for that. I think you are totally right about the need to keep perspective and not get too bogged down in things and to lighten up with a bit of humour here and there... I take that on board... I should try harder (if that is not taking it too seriously, hehehe)... and, as I said, I loved the comedian's sending up of marriage... i think it was really funny. Cheers.

165 チャン

Food for thought, thanks. Like I said, my impression is that Japanese people are generally more open to gays than many western folks (like some of those in this thread), but of course gay life is not likely to be any picnic in any society, much less a generally homogeneous (heh) one like Japan's.

That said, if my kid ran off at 17 to live with a much older lover instead of going to high school, I'd kick his or her ass no matter who had what gender. That just requires an ass-kicking.

No doubt Japan has more Outwardly gay TV personalities and artists than any other country.
Their popularity shows that using the word ostracized may have been over kill. I don`t see them having such a difficult time.　

#167 fenomas

> That said, if my kid ran off at 17 to live with a much older lover instead of going to high school, I'd kick his or her ass no matter who had what gender. That just requires an ass-kicking.

Well, personally, I don' think that is what he needs... He ran away from a very dysfunctional family with constant fighting and threatening of him after he came out to his father... He got plenty of ass-kicking BEFORE he left home, just for being who he is... He is a really nice guy, so balanced and calm, much more mature than the 35 year old (well-known French identity) he ran off with. I encouraged him to stay home and finish school at the time... but I could understand that his life was pretty miserable and he wanted to get away...

I was in touch with him day by day on MSN prior to, during and just after his time in Europe... What I really admired was the fact that he went half way across the world and handled himself really well (too much detail to go into), and then realised it was not a good situation and he returned home and went back to finish school, even though I think it was hard for him, since his life experience was so much greater than his classmates and he had to put up with the ridicule from some of them since his sexuality was known to all. I haven't been in touch with him for awhile... This has made me think I should speak to him again now.

#168 TokyoOG

I can understand why you would think that, watching these people on TV. However, this is one of the things that gay activists in Japan complain about. It is OK to appear in certain guises on TV where everyone is entertained by you, but if you turn up as the brother, boss, co-worker, friend, etc of a Japanese in real life, you find yourself despised and shunned. You would need to read more at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_Minorities_in_Japan

If you were to read “Male Homosexuality in Modern Japan: Cultural Myths and Social Realities”, by Mark McLelland, you would get a much better picture of the huge mismatch between the Japanese media depiction of gay males in Japan and the experience of everyday Japanese gays. Also “Queer Japan: Personal Stories of Japanese Lesbians, Gays, Transsexuals and Bisexuals”, translated by Barbara Summerhawk, Cheiron McMahill, and Darren McDonald, talks about Japan being even more rigid and denying towards gays than the “Puritanical society” (their words, not mine) of the US.

I could quote a number of other books, but they are in storage at the moment while I am doing house renovations and I cannot get the details. These books all back up my own observations and feedback I get from Japanese gay friends, that Japanese gays are in the closet for good reasons, and the consequences of coming out terrify them. Although there is not the physical or even verbal hostility to gays to anywhere near the extent that you find in the West, it is generally considered quite unacceptable for someone from your ‘in-group’ (family, work, university, etc) to live openly with a gay partner in Japan, and it will generally bring a sense of shame to the family.

Due to a number of commitments, I may not have time to contribute any more to this debate, but it has been interesting hearing the various points of view.

Thanks for the info チャン - I had built an image out of what one sees on TV, but there's clearly a lot more to it.

We also have to remember - It would be more likely that the Japanese would be more open to homosexuality because it DOES have a place in their history, and isn't exactly considered as being shameful rather than in America, where we have the influence of Christianity.

What about Kabuki (men dancing as women) , and Takarazuka (Women acting as men) ?
Japan seems to be able to deal with this when it suites them so it really can`t be that shocking for them to see actual gay Japanese men and women. What a double standard. Like laughing at a fat guy and than praising Sumo. Something is just wrong with this picture.

Golly, gosh, shucks, I have so much other stuff to do, but now you tempt me to respond to more posts, hehehe…

#173 TokyoOG

Yep, that's what Japanese gays are saying... "something is just wrong with this picture"... gays can appear on television to entertain the masses, but they are 'not in my backyard' inacceptable on a personal level....

On television (different issues in manga, anime, and other media), they are generally the queenie (o-kama) stereotypes, and do not represent the majority of gay people. Gay men, for example, include large numbers of big-bellied truck and bus drivers (I know lots), manly sportsmen, hairy grandfathers, or really ‘regular’ guys that appear no different from the 'straight' guy standing beside them. Except that, they are denied rights.

#172 Amber

> We also have to remember - It would be more likely that the Japanese would be more open to homosexuality because it DOES have a place in their history, and isn't exactly considered as being shameful rather than in America, where we have the influence of Christianity.

It’s a good point. Many educated Japanese and other gay commentators outside Japan would love to see a return to earlier Japanese attitudes to same sex relationships. Unfortunately the trend is the reverse.

Japan has the best statistics for longevity in the world, probably largely due to their diet, yet young people in Japan flock to McDonald’s food outlets, while office workers here in Melbourne can’t get enough sushi for lunch for health reasons. Go figure!

You Americans who post here, through your British and European migrants, are the inheritors of European culture, including Ancient Roman, Ancient Greek, Mesopotamian, etc. Like former Chinese and Japanese cultures, the Roman and Greek cultures highly esteemed same sex liaisons, especially between males (since they were dominant in society in their minds). What is today called ‘homosexual’ activity has also been part of traditional cultures in Africa, the Pacific, North America, etc.

The word ‘homosexual’ was not coined until 1869. There was no such word earlier. There was no such social ‘identity’ as homosexual or gay in the ancient worlds of Rome, Greece, China or Japan. The gay ‘identity’ is a modern concept. Previously, the concept of a man being a ‘man lover’ would be no more significant than if he was a ‘whale eater’, or a ‘whisky drinker’, or a ‘foot fetishist’ – those would have been what they DID, not what they WERE. Just as you straights don’t go around saying to everyone, ‘Hi, my name’s John, I’m straight’. That may be your orientation, but it is not your identity.

If you’re Caucasian, you would never go around making reference to the fact you were white, either, UNLESS you were in a community where there were other colours of people and skin colour became a political issue. Gays discovered homosexuality as an identity once they were being denied the right to live out their lives in their normal way. This kind of identity is largely political in origin, but becomes cultural and societal once people start thinking of themselves as a sub-group of the society, which in Ancient Rome, Greece, China and Japan, they never did. They were mainstream then. Various Roman Emperors had male consorts instead of females. It was perfectly ‘normal’ then.

The trend in Japan is for minority groups, such as zainichi Koreans or bunraku people, to seek redress for their lack of equality with those around them through the mechanism of ‘human rights’, which is really a Western political approach. Gays in Japan are similarly following that road. This results in them having to, by definition, identify themselves as a labelled sub-group in their society.

Although this may indeed bring about equal civil rights over time, it has in the process, paradoxically, precluded them from being in the ‘norm’ category, as they used to be in the ancient worlds.

While I would hope that Japanese would not tend any more towards the Western concept of ‘shame’ attached to sex, and therefore impact on their view of same sex relationships, there is a slight trend in that direction, I believe. For example, the innocent and charming practice of mixed sex public bathing in Japan has virtually become a thing of the past, under the influence of the West. Modern Japanese would simply never contemplate it.

Just wanted to say: Congratulations to all the homosexual couples in NY, who, as of today, can at long last enjoy the legal benefits--as well as the emotional ups and downs--of marriage.

I dont see it as a big deal, they are just people, like you and me
trying to find love.
im pretty sure we all are.
we all follow our own path.
im straight thats my path, other people go down a different road,
its just life.
we all go down a road that we as humans, feel is right.
good for everyone and lets move on with our lives.
and worry about more important things, like war, and destruction, that
we humans tend to do to this plant.

@fenomas, チャン, TokyoOG: I don't think that people in Japan are necessarily more or less open to gays than Western folks. To somewhat corroborate チャン's statement about many gays in Japan being in the closet, well, I live in Chicago, but by and large, all of my friends who were exchange students from Japan (Chiba University to be precise), and those who are from Japan but now live here, have all said they had never met a gay person before coming to the United States. In fact, when one of the exchange students told me that I was the first and only gay person he knew, I pointed out to him that 2 or 3 of the other people he'd met here were also gay (and open about it), he said "Oh, it must be an American thing then." Being gay is an American thing? lol. Then again, this is the same Japanese guy that asked me "Are you [a gay man] uncomfortable using the men's toilets? because I would feel uncomfortable if I had to use the women's toilet," so apparently he didn't quite consider gay men to be...well, men. And though I am somewhat feminine, he didn't know I was gay until he was told.

I think you may be right in that "people are more 'open'" to the idea. However, that does not mean that gays in Japan have it easier. I've heard from people that on a person to person basis, they are 'okay' with gay people, but as a society...I don't know if this is the case. And of course, just like in the US, it's one thing when it's an abstract concept you don't know much about, and another thing when it is your child, sibling, parent, or god forbid, (opposite sex) husband or wife!

There is a website called jguyusguy dot org. If you can't tell by the name, it's a website/community for gay Japanese men to find and meet foreign gay men. BUT, in the forums "Things gay" and "Things japanese," there are often topics dealing with the homosexual experience in Japan, both as experienced by Japanese gay men, and as observed/experienced by gay foreigners visiting or living in Japan. they often talk about stereotypes, or hookups, or things like that. One of the big things that comes up, is that a relatively large amount of older gay japanese men are often married to women! They say they can recognize these from personal ads where the japanese man is looking for a man to have sex with, but is "unable to host," which they say from experience usually means the man is living with his parents, who do not know he is gay, or worse, is living with his wife and children! Surely a man who feels the need to have a secret "gay" life separate from his "normal straight life with his wife" is NOT a man who feels safe coming out.

Now, with respect to gays on TV in japan, it may be true that you see more gay entertainers and such, BUT...if you look at other portrayals of LGBT people in Japan...there may not be many, but two that immeidatley spring to mind are Last Friends, which has as one of the main characters Ueno Juri playing as a lesbian who suspects she may be transgendered, and 二十歳の微熱、which is about two gay call boys, one of which has been thrown out of his house after coming out to his parents. Neither one is about how great it is to be gay in Japan...in fact the latter even has, as a humorous scene, a part where one of the guys goes to his "girlfriend's" house, and finds out that her father is actually one of his customers. Not that I can't see the humor in the situation,but when you think of what that means for that gay man and his family that considers him straight...it's actually kind of depressing.


174>>On television, they are generally the queenie stereotypes, and do not represent the majority of gay people. Gay men, for example, include large numbers of big-bellied truck and bus drivers , manly sportsmen, hairy grandfathers, or really ‘regular’ guys that appear no different from the 'straight' guy standing beside them. Except that, they are denied rights.

I don't know how the community in Japan is, but in the US there are terrible problems within these groups. because the more feminine gay guys are more visible because of the way a lot of them talk and act, they are what most people think of when they think of "gay." Therefore, the more hairy "bears" or "straight-acting" guys (yes, some people group themselves as straight-acting and gay-acting! wtf?? no one is "acting!") sometimes resent the really effeminate guys. They see them as "giving gays a bad name" or "reinforcing stereotypes by pretending to act that way" or other dumb things like that. On the other hand, straight actingor not, in the mainstream gay community, big hairy men are considered very undesirable, and some people don't want to associate with them because of it! Of course, people also are treated differently because of body type, but in my experiences, it's more severe than in the heterosexual world. What might be skinny oracceptable for a woman, or a straight man, can sometimes be called too fat for a gay man!

Additionally, you have people who are gay, but discriminate against bisexuals or transgendered people as well (especially the latter!). It's kind of...terrible.

Also, to piggyback on what チャンsaid, gays found their collective and political identity, more or less in 1969 during the stonewall riots. Basically, back in the US at that time, sexual relations between two men or two women was illegal. Wearing clothes of the opposite gender was illegal, and gay bars in and of themselves were illegal. They still operated, but in secret, and usually run by the mafia.

The Stonewall Inn was a famous gay bar in New York which was notable because a lot of the customers were effeminate gay men, drag queens, transgendered people and homeless gay kids, most of whom were discriminated against and not even allowed in any of the other gay bars! In that time, it was common for the police to raid known gay bars, arrest the customers (especially men dressed as women), and even the staff, who most of the time were not gay.

At the end of June, 1969, the police came in to arrest people, and tensions got higher and higher. Some of the lesbian customers were being touched inappropriately by police, anyone dressed like a woman was separated so that they could check to see who was a man and who was a woman, the police were being physically rough with...well, everyone. Eventually the crowd spontaneously got fed up and started a violent riot,violently pushing the police back with bottles and cans, throwing change at them, in one case, pulling up a parking meter to use as a battering ram to break open the doors of the bar, which the police had barricaded!In the end, some people were arrested, but the police, who were severely outnumbered, were pushed back and beaten by the crowd of gay men and women!

It was at the time the biggest instance of gay people fighting back against mistreatment, and the first time amistreated group that fought back actually SUCCEEDED in pushing back the police. There were a few more riots the next few days as well, and these riots are considered the start of the modern gay rights movement. Every year near the end of June in many cities across the united states (and even in some foreign countries) there are now gay pride parades to commemorate the Stonewall riots.

Which is why I find it silly that now "straight-acting" gay men are hating on the feminine gay men---It was those feminine gay that were the first to stand up and fight back so that those straight-acting gays could even have the rights that they now enjoy! They fought for my right as a gay man to go out to a bar and have a drink with other gay men, so that I could dance with another man in public without being arrested, so that I could be open about myself without fear of losing my job, and hopefully one day, so that I can get married to another man if I so choose.

This was pride weekend in the United States, and Chicago's gay pride parade was yesterday. In the morning, it was found out that someone had slashed the tires of around 50 of the floats in the parade, but rather than let that stop anyone, most of the floats were repaired in time for the parade. I had a lot of fun, and if no one minds me saying, I got to meet, dance with, and kiss a very beautiful man in the middle of the sidewalk/street yesterday, without anyone around judging or harassing us. And that was a very beautiful thing.


Sorry, I got off topic a little bit.

I think we can’t prevent from their mutual love. No matter what type of marrige they are. It is their freedom and right.

Hi,Guys

I think,

It does't matter right or worng.

Love is precious.