When ever I feel like that, I read this document again and thank god that it`s 2007 and not 1833. We all as humans have come a long way. There is still a long way to go, but look at where we came from. This is an actual document from a real time in our past. It`s unbelievable, horrible, and painfully real.
|
|
|
|
コメント(52)
I don't want to make other posters feel disingenuous here, but why do white people feel like they have to talk about the first time they met a person of color?
And yes they were a great person etc
It's the year 2007 - is it really that special, or more importantly noteworthy, to say that you met a person of color? You have "ethnic" friends?
I know I do it - but I've come to think it just a little patronizing...
Just like the people who think they are the shit because they have a gay friend etc
How many time have you rolled your eyes at something like
"oh I was talking to my gay friend" etc
What got me thinking like that was after the recent spat of celebrity racism - Riggs, Kramer, Maggie O'Brien (that's R. O'Donnell) etc. They all came out and did a "sorry" speech, but people of color largely said "fuck your apology, we don't want it/need it/care about it.
Makes me think if they really care you have friend of color, you met a black guy once etc...
I know it's important to you - that's why you let us in on it...
but
you know, what are we really trying to say with that?
We have to do like ダニちゃん says and go head on with action and not words. And what we should be going head on against is the reality of what white people did in history to anyone who wasn't white.
We have to come out and make reparations for it - not necessarily only financial....but financial reparations have to be in there somewhere...
Difficult situation
And yes they were a great person etc
It's the year 2007 - is it really that special, or more importantly noteworthy, to say that you met a person of color? You have "ethnic" friends?
I know I do it - but I've come to think it just a little patronizing...
Just like the people who think they are the shit because they have a gay friend etc
How many time have you rolled your eyes at something like
"oh I was talking to my gay friend" etc
What got me thinking like that was after the recent spat of celebrity racism - Riggs, Kramer, Maggie O'Brien (that's R. O'Donnell) etc. They all came out and did a "sorry" speech, but people of color largely said "fuck your apology, we don't want it/need it/care about it.
Makes me think if they really care you have friend of color, you met a black guy once etc...
I know it's important to you - that's why you let us in on it...
but
you know, what are we really trying to say with that?
We have to do like ダニちゃん says and go head on with action and not words. And what we should be going head on against is the reality of what white people did in history to anyone who wasn't white.
We have to come out and make reparations for it - not necessarily only financial....but financial reparations have to be in there somewhere...
Difficult situation
A form of action can lack physical action. Discussion leads to change, beit that change could be in many forms. To say that talking about it does no good, is in fact no good. Some people lack this knowledge, therefore this has brought attention to what some may not have ever read before.
Just because you have heard this many times before, doesnt mean everyone has. Also, if you are tired of everyone talking about with no physical action, then why arent you doing something instead of talking as well?
Its better that it gets talked about, then not at all.
Just because you have heard this many times before, doesnt mean everyone has. Also, if you are tired of everyone talking about with no physical action, then why arent you doing something instead of talking as well?
Its better that it gets talked about, then not at all.
>16
I understand what you are saying, but the reason of what I said was to make my point why I hate slavery. That's why I said how my encounter with this person had a positive impact on my life and explain why this is a part of American history that I'm not proud of.
I don't call anybody my ethnic friends, just friends. Can we just stick to the main topic? Thank you!
I understand what you are saying, but the reason of what I said was to make my point why I hate slavery. That's why I said how my encounter with this person had a positive impact on my life and explain why this is a part of American history that I'm not proud of.
I don't call anybody my ethnic friends, just friends. Can we just stick to the main topic? Thank you!
Okay, there are a number of different ways you can react to 'positive racism' or affirmative action. We all have different value systems and had a different looking schoolyard.
Its interesting that this forum is on a Japanese site, not only that but it is about slavery. Slavery is a terrible thing, but just because recent history points to the enslavement of African Americans by whites, by no means are they the only cultures involved.
Some people will find it difficult to start/join a forum and may begin by making a value judgement that may be thought of as offensive. But upping the ante and being aggressive with people who have put their thoughts on the line may not do anything to improve a situation.
Its interesting that this forum is on a Japanese site, not only that but it is about slavery. Slavery is a terrible thing, but just because recent history points to the enslavement of African Americans by whites, by no means are they the only cultures involved.
Some people will find it difficult to start/join a forum and may begin by making a value judgement that may be thought of as offensive. But upping the ante and being aggressive with people who have put their thoughts on the line may not do anything to improve a situation.
20+21>
Woah
Sorry guys, I think you read a little to much into my comment there. If you want me to say sorry then sure I'll say "Sorry".
Yeah, ofcourse I don't expect you, me, or anyone call people their "ethnic friends"...that's what I meant when I said
"It's the year 2007"
But look at Klaus ;
"you have any right whatsoever to
come up with any unqualified accusations!"
why have you got such a bee in your bonnet Klaus?
I didn't accuse anyone of anything - I certainly didn't want to anyway. I said shouldn't you think twice about why you are telling us all you met a black person once (the first time)?
On a thread about "haven't we come a long way", a thread with a picture of a poster that reads "Public Sale of Negroes",
so, sorry but, you guys tell me to get back on topic?
I'm simply asking why it's pertinent to advertise your non-racist credentials?
(and absolutely vaild they are too. Aren't they?)
Wow, I thought this whole thing was about discussion...
TokyoOG says "havent we come a long way?"
and everyone jumps in with "Yeah!" - and rightly so...
some say "lets continue the fight!" - and rightly so...
it's not hard to see where ダニちゃん's feeling came from...
are we all really continuing the fight?
what are you fighting for?
For Kramer to say sorry on Letterman?
TokyoOG said looking at that document was "painfully real" for him. I guess TokyoOG is black, but is that document painfully real for you Klaus? Chris? Me?
Doesn't it suggest white people need to ask themselves some more difficult questions?
I propose in relation to the OP
"why do white people - two here, myself from time to time, feel the need to say they have black/Muslim/Asian/whatever friends? Do those minorites actually care if I met a black guy once?"
take it or leave it man.
Once again, if you think I'm trying to assasinate your character then that's a shame, just remember I may be assasinating my charcter too, and I still think it's just a tid-bit patronizing to say ;
"First time for me to "really" meet an African, still remember his name: Abe Asanti...must have been in his late 20s then,
was my judo trainer for quite some time. Tell ya, I
had a real friend there!!"
That's great Klaus, but if a friend is just a friend, irrespective of color than what's that story doing here?
No, sorry that wasn't fair, I apologize.
I know you just wanted to show where you are coming from...but think about why you feel the need to do that...
hope you understand
Woah
Sorry guys, I think you read a little to much into my comment there. If you want me to say sorry then sure I'll say "Sorry".
Yeah, ofcourse I don't expect you, me, or anyone call people their "ethnic friends"...that's what I meant when I said
"It's the year 2007"
But look at Klaus ;
"you have any right whatsoever to
come up with any unqualified accusations!"
why have you got such a bee in your bonnet Klaus?
I didn't accuse anyone of anything - I certainly didn't want to anyway. I said shouldn't you think twice about why you are telling us all you met a black person once (the first time)?
On a thread about "haven't we come a long way", a thread with a picture of a poster that reads "Public Sale of Negroes",
so, sorry but, you guys tell me to get back on topic?
I'm simply asking why it's pertinent to advertise your non-racist credentials?
(and absolutely vaild they are too. Aren't they?)
Wow, I thought this whole thing was about discussion...
TokyoOG says "havent we come a long way?"
and everyone jumps in with "Yeah!" - and rightly so...
some say "lets continue the fight!" - and rightly so...
it's not hard to see where ダニちゃん's feeling came from...
are we all really continuing the fight?
what are you fighting for?
For Kramer to say sorry on Letterman?
TokyoOG said looking at that document was "painfully real" for him. I guess TokyoOG is black, but is that document painfully real for you Klaus? Chris? Me?
Doesn't it suggest white people need to ask themselves some more difficult questions?
I propose in relation to the OP
"why do white people - two here, myself from time to time, feel the need to say they have black/Muslim/Asian/whatever friends? Do those minorites actually care if I met a black guy once?"
take it or leave it man.
Once again, if you think I'm trying to assasinate your character then that's a shame, just remember I may be assasinating my charcter too, and I still think it's just a tid-bit patronizing to say ;
"First time for me to "really" meet an African, still remember his name: Abe Asanti...must have been in his late 20s then,
was my judo trainer for quite some time. Tell ya, I
had a real friend there!!"
That's great Klaus, but if a friend is just a friend, irrespective of color than what's that story doing here?
No, sorry that wasn't fair, I apologize.
I know you just wanted to show where you are coming from...but think about why you feel the need to do that...
hope you understand
19> Einn
I agree with you. Talking about something raises awareness. It's not a waste of time. Some people don't know or never think about stuff like this. I wasn't really thinking about it until yesterday, though I'm aware of it, obviously. It's good to be reminded.
Talking about issues like this is essential. Maybe out of a discussion like this only one person will decide to physically do something but that's better than none. It would be great if everyone did something, and if you keep talking eventually more people will.
Talking prompts thinking prompts action. Thinking prompts talking prompts action. If we stop either the world becomes an even worse place.
I agree with you. Talking about something raises awareness. It's not a waste of time. Some people don't know or never think about stuff like this. I wasn't really thinking about it until yesterday, though I'm aware of it, obviously. It's good to be reminded.
Talking about issues like this is essential. Maybe out of a discussion like this only one person will decide to physically do something but that's better than none. It would be great if everyone did something, and if you keep talking eventually more people will.
Talking prompts thinking prompts action. Thinking prompts talking prompts action. If we stop either the world becomes an even worse place.
I guess the real undertone of my post at <16> was about this ;
I suppose in psychology etc they say you can't move-on, recover, come to terms, progress, or heal if you don't admit there was a problem/crime whatever....
Just like the first step of curing an addiction is to admit to yourself you are an addict.
An osmosis of sorts I suppose...
I don't know how we are supposed to do that as a race.
But it seems to make sense to me that you can do it individually at least.
That's why I ask Klaus, Chris, and myself - why do we need to advertise our credentials on racism etc?
Are we worried about something?
I'm not sure white people have admitted to themselves, publicly, governmentally, whatever about the slave trade, and what white people did/do.
Sure we're all quick to say "Sorry", or condemn the slave trade, but how many white people have you heard saying "Slavery was an evil crime against humanity by the White man. Yes. It was a crime (morally) and white people are responsible. White people thought anyone of color to be animal or in-human. White people traded these people for money. Even fought wars to protect the right to. What does that say about White people? I am a White man." - How many white people have you heard come out with something like that?
Do you think the G.W.Bush could say something like that?
Tony Blair?
Jacques Chirac?
Jorge Sampaio?
Jose Zapatero?
I haven't heard many people quick to come out like that, nevermind our leaders.
We don't want to.
Like an addict who won't admit they are an addict.
You can't argue any of those statements are invalid.
If you do you say White people aren't responsible for Slavery.
Does anyone want to say that?
This brings up the "guilty of being white" argument.
That's too difficult for me.
Sorry.
But I think the end-point of the whole thing is going to be whenever White people can get themselves to the point where non-white people can forgive us for what happened in History.
I suppose in psychology etc they say you can't move-on, recover, come to terms, progress, or heal if you don't admit there was a problem/crime whatever....
Just like the first step of curing an addiction is to admit to yourself you are an addict.
An osmosis of sorts I suppose...
I don't know how we are supposed to do that as a race.
But it seems to make sense to me that you can do it individually at least.
That's why I ask Klaus, Chris, and myself - why do we need to advertise our credentials on racism etc?
Are we worried about something?
I'm not sure white people have admitted to themselves, publicly, governmentally, whatever about the slave trade, and what white people did/do.
Sure we're all quick to say "Sorry", or condemn the slave trade, but how many white people have you heard saying "Slavery was an evil crime against humanity by the White man. Yes. It was a crime (morally) and white people are responsible. White people thought anyone of color to be animal or in-human. White people traded these people for money. Even fought wars to protect the right to. What does that say about White people? I am a White man." - How many white people have you heard come out with something like that?
Do you think the G.W.Bush could say something like that?
Tony Blair?
Jacques Chirac?
Jorge Sampaio?
Jose Zapatero?
I haven't heard many people quick to come out like that, nevermind our leaders.
We don't want to.
Like an addict who won't admit they are an addict.
You can't argue any of those statements are invalid.
If you do you say White people aren't responsible for Slavery.
Does anyone want to say that?
This brings up the "guilty of being white" argument.
That's too difficult for me.
Sorry.
But I think the end-point of the whole thing is going to be whenever White people can get themselves to the point where non-white people can forgive us for what happened in History.
In denial is the most comfortable place to be.
These things definitly need to be said, especially by our (so called) leaders. Like you, I think it's important part of getting through something. That's why talking is important.
I think people like Blair and Bush aren't really statesmen. They're just politicians. They're not visionary enough, sensible enough, or honourable enough to admit when something is or was wrong on their part, or their nations part. If they ever did, they would climb in my estimation, until then I can't respect them at all. They're just hot air in suits ... and very dangerous hot air to boot.
These things definitly need to be said, especially by our (so called) leaders. Like you, I think it's important part of getting through something. That's why talking is important.
I think people like Blair and Bush aren't really statesmen. They're just politicians. They're not visionary enough, sensible enough, or honourable enough to admit when something is or was wrong on their part, or their nations part. If they ever did, they would climb in my estimation, until then I can't respect them at all. They're just hot air in suits ... and very dangerous hot air to boot.
Interesting points of view everyone has. Or therefore lack of one. Being it seems people are more busy assassinating everyone's character..
Any who....
May i point something out..? Slavery isn't anything new to man kind. It's been around for thousands of years for crying out loud. In fact, it still exists in Africa. Ever heard of Mauritania? Over 30,000 African's are still enslaved there. Slavery existed among people of every color on every inhabited continent.
May I also point out Arabians still practice slavery?
May i also point out the only reason slavery is not still prevalent today is because Western civilization eventually turned against it and proceeded to stamp it out all over the world -- over the bitter opposition of Africans and Arabs, among others. Or would that just be to politically incorrect..?
Maybe you guys don't care about this either, long before blacks were even enslaved in America. White's enslaved whites. White children of white slave family's would in turn become slaves. And worked to death. Using excess white slaves to perches black slaves. I won't delve to deep in it cause it would take forever. Oh wait, is this also politically incorrect to mention?
In fact between the 16th and 18th century European Christians were enslaved by Muslims in North Africa.
You guys just give the impression that slavery is something created by or for one particular race.
Did you guys even know the overseas trade of black slaves was established much earlier, the that of the Europeans. It was established by Arabs, and was operated with the complicity of black rulers and black merchants.
Sure slavery existed in America for 250 years. But all I see is people alienating one race and one country for it. When many more were responsible for it.
Why not grab a history book and learn some things before you talk? I totally agree talking about this kind of stuff is good food for thought. But when all you talk about is crap and things you don't even research about, it doesn't help. Your comments and opinions become worthless.
Apologizes and reparations won't do anything or fix anything about the past. The best thing to do is what we are doing now. Ridding the world of Slavery.
Germans killed Jews, Japanese raped and killed Chinese, and took over the Philippines and Korea.
Every race and every nation has committed some type of human atrocity.
Freedom isn't free. Don't forget that.
That's my 2 cents there. Take what i said as you want. I don't care. Hate me, Disagree with me, Assassinate my character. I don't care...
Any who....
May i point something out..? Slavery isn't anything new to man kind. It's been around for thousands of years for crying out loud. In fact, it still exists in Africa. Ever heard of Mauritania? Over 30,000 African's are still enslaved there. Slavery existed among people of every color on every inhabited continent.
May I also point out Arabians still practice slavery?
May i also point out the only reason slavery is not still prevalent today is because Western civilization eventually turned against it and proceeded to stamp it out all over the world -- over the bitter opposition of Africans and Arabs, among others. Or would that just be to politically incorrect..?
Maybe you guys don't care about this either, long before blacks were even enslaved in America. White's enslaved whites. White children of white slave family's would in turn become slaves. And worked to death. Using excess white slaves to perches black slaves. I won't delve to deep in it cause it would take forever. Oh wait, is this also politically incorrect to mention?
In fact between the 16th and 18th century European Christians were enslaved by Muslims in North Africa.
You guys just give the impression that slavery is something created by or for one particular race.
Did you guys even know the overseas trade of black slaves was established much earlier, the that of the Europeans. It was established by Arabs, and was operated with the complicity of black rulers and black merchants.
Sure slavery existed in America for 250 years. But all I see is people alienating one race and one country for it. When many more were responsible for it.
Why not grab a history book and learn some things before you talk? I totally agree talking about this kind of stuff is good food for thought. But when all you talk about is crap and things you don't even research about, it doesn't help. Your comments and opinions become worthless.
Apologizes and reparations won't do anything or fix anything about the past. The best thing to do is what we are doing now. Ridding the world of Slavery.
Germans killed Jews, Japanese raped and killed Chinese, and took over the Philippines and Korea.
Every race and every nation has committed some type of human atrocity.
Freedom isn't free. Don't forget that.
That's my 2 cents there. Take what i said as you want. I don't care. Hate me, Disagree with me, Assassinate my character. I don't care...
>mrkuryakin
You got my point well. It brings a lively grin to my face when someone understands my excessively complex way of formulating the simple phrases in my comments. ^^
There is a reason, or more so, an excuse as to why the world "seems" to pick on ol' lil' America in the whole slavery or racist gauge. For those who already know it (and a very rare few at that), understand why i am going to leave that peice of founding information hidden in the next paragraph.
Before i hit that shiny submit button, i am going to leave an interesting tidbit behind on this topic: Isnt it interesting how the Civil War in America that was fought between the Union and the Confederates over state rights which turned into a mission of freeing the slaves and causing great influence on Europe to do the same as they sided with the idea put forth by the abolisionists?
Forgive the run-on sentence, but that should enlighten those who can understand why i included it ^_^
You got my point well. It brings a lively grin to my face when someone understands my excessively complex way of formulating the simple phrases in my comments. ^^
There is a reason, or more so, an excuse as to why the world "seems" to pick on ol' lil' America in the whole slavery or racist gauge. For those who already know it (and a very rare few at that), understand why i am going to leave that peice of founding information hidden in the next paragraph.
Before i hit that shiny submit button, i am going to leave an interesting tidbit behind on this topic: Isnt it interesting how the Civil War in America that was fought between the Union and the Confederates over state rights which turned into a mission of freeing the slaves and causing great influence on Europe to do the same as they sided with the idea put forth by the abolisionists?
Forgive the run-on sentence, but that should enlighten those who can understand why i included it ^_^
27> Hey there ウィール,
Hope you're not saying I don't have a point of view....
I came with an uncomfortable question for some, that no-one has yet even tried to answer, (doesn't really matter though), and the point of view that goes with it is, aren't we trying to wish away the fact the White people enslaved other people more successfully than any other race?
>You guys just give the impression that slavery is something created by or for one particular race.
Sure, your post showed me a whole load of new stuff....
Which race has made the most obvious finanical/power benefit from Slavery? Got any figures for that?
Don't see any Arab nations weilding a security council veto at the UN...
Britain had it's Slavery triangle between England, West Africa, and the Sugar/Cotton plantations in the US...
Lloyds of London was a coffee house where traders made deals off the back of the Slavery triangle, and found it's niche in money lending and insurance of the trade not cups of coffee....
Don't see many multi-billion dollar businesses coming out of Mauritania's operation.
But that's not the point I have for you ウィール...
I'm an unflinching fan of Secular Democracy, and the fact we stamp out slavery as you mention ウィール is great isn't it...
So what about the people who live in our Secular Democracy whose ancestors were brought over in slave ships and worked to death?
I don't expect the overthrown Govenment of Mauritania, the Military Junta, or anyone come out trying to clean it's Moral conscience anytime soon....
Are you saying if they don't, we shouldn't?
Are you saying our conscience is already clear?
We're an adult democracy, and don't you think we have to think about where we are really at as a society on this.
Not just to say because other people do/did it too, we shouldn't have to make ammends.
>Apologizes and reparations won't do anything or fix anything about the past
Really. Why?
What's the name of Spike Lee's production company ウィール? I know that sounds right-on and contrived....but why isn't Spike Lee happy about white people's current mind-set?
Perhaps because a film like DO THE RIGHT THING can never win an Oscar but a piece of shit like CRASH can....
Agree apologies are worthless.
No-one was impressed with Kramer on Letterman...
and it's easy to say "well do you really mean it?"
If we made reparations we can say "yeah we really meant it"
>The best thing to do is what we are doing now. Ridding the world of Slavery.
No-one is going to disagree with you on that.
As you say, we are ridding the World of slavery....
But
I say to you, Is racism still a problem in Western countries?
What was it Kramer said again?...."a hundred years ago you'd be hanging from a tree"
Is that strategy going to take us over the finish line on this one ウィール?
My point was about White people, because I'm white, and about the West (Europe & US in particuar) becuase I'm a Westerner.
Couldn't make demands of any other race to think about their responsibility, when my race hasn't even thought about theirs (in my opinion of course), and I'm not even a member of that race, and they may not adhere as a society to the same ideology as me...
Just hypocritical isn't it.
Hope you're not saying I don't have a point of view....
I came with an uncomfortable question for some, that no-one has yet even tried to answer, (doesn't really matter though), and the point of view that goes with it is, aren't we trying to wish away the fact the White people enslaved other people more successfully than any other race?
>You guys just give the impression that slavery is something created by or for one particular race.
Sure, your post showed me a whole load of new stuff....
Which race has made the most obvious finanical/power benefit from Slavery? Got any figures for that?
Don't see any Arab nations weilding a security council veto at the UN...
Britain had it's Slavery triangle between England, West Africa, and the Sugar/Cotton plantations in the US...
Lloyds of London was a coffee house where traders made deals off the back of the Slavery triangle, and found it's niche in money lending and insurance of the trade not cups of coffee....
Don't see many multi-billion dollar businesses coming out of Mauritania's operation.
But that's not the point I have for you ウィール...
I'm an unflinching fan of Secular Democracy, and the fact we stamp out slavery as you mention ウィール is great isn't it...
So what about the people who live in our Secular Democracy whose ancestors were brought over in slave ships and worked to death?
I don't expect the overthrown Govenment of Mauritania, the Military Junta, or anyone come out trying to clean it's Moral conscience anytime soon....
Are you saying if they don't, we shouldn't?
Are you saying our conscience is already clear?
We're an adult democracy, and don't you think we have to think about where we are really at as a society on this.
Not just to say because other people do/did it too, we shouldn't have to make ammends.
>Apologizes and reparations won't do anything or fix anything about the past
Really. Why?
What's the name of Spike Lee's production company ウィール? I know that sounds right-on and contrived....but why isn't Spike Lee happy about white people's current mind-set?
Perhaps because a film like DO THE RIGHT THING can never win an Oscar but a piece of shit like CRASH can....
Agree apologies are worthless.
No-one was impressed with Kramer on Letterman...
and it's easy to say "well do you really mean it?"
If we made reparations we can say "yeah we really meant it"
>The best thing to do is what we are doing now. Ridding the world of Slavery.
No-one is going to disagree with you on that.
As you say, we are ridding the World of slavery....
But
I say to you, Is racism still a problem in Western countries?
What was it Kramer said again?...."a hundred years ago you'd be hanging from a tree"
Is that strategy going to take us over the finish line on this one ウィール?
My point was about White people, because I'm white, and about the West (Europe & US in particuar) becuase I'm a Westerner.
Couldn't make demands of any other race to think about their responsibility, when my race hasn't even thought about theirs (in my opinion of course), and I'm not even a member of that race, and they may not adhere as a society to the same ideology as me...
Just hypocritical isn't it.
I can`t speak for all black people but when I hear someone say " I have or had black friends" I can tell by the tone if it is patronizing or not. And I actually can not recall ever really feeling that way. The post in this thread seemed sincere to me and no offense was taken. I was prepared for a variety of responses that would reflect the broad range of philosophies on an international site like this. The points about slavery not being unique to any one race is very important. The atrocities that have been carried out and are still being carried out by Black Africans, against Black Africans, and by European whites against, European whites etc.. is equally unbelievable, and unacceptable. From our history we can see that we as humans in general, are all guilty. There are uncaring, evil people to be found in every race. Mine and yours. In the past and today. What are we going to do about it now ? How is this mentality able to still thrive in certain places in 2007 when we all should have learned from our merciless past? Is it possible that we (Humans) can`t change? Is this behavior inherent ? Only by talking about this in the open will we be able to one day "reprogram" the minds of the future so everyone will agree that treating other people, animals, trees, etc.. with total disregard is just plain wrong.
You are all good people. We don`t always agree on every issue, but we are able to carry out dialogue that helps us to understand what areas still need work and where we need to go. None of us are old enough to have participated in any of these horrible acts from the past, but there`s always tomorrow. And we can make sure it never happens around us again. And if it does we can speak out and try to do something about it.
You are all good people. We don`t always agree on every issue, but we are able to carry out dialogue that helps us to understand what areas still need work and where we need to go. None of us are old enough to have participated in any of these horrible acts from the past, but there`s always tomorrow. And we can make sure it never happens around us again. And if it does we can speak out and try to do something about it.
>ウィール Apologizes and reparations won't do anything or fix anything about the past. The best thing to do is what we are doing now. Ridding the world of Slavery.
Germans killed Jews, Japanese raped and killed Chinese, and took over the Philippines and Korea.
Every race and every nation has committed some type of human atrocity.
Freedom isn't free. Don't forget that.
That's my 2 cents there. Take what i said as you want. I don't care. Hate me, Disagree with me, Assassinate my character. I don't care...
... That's good then, because you probably won't bother to respond to this :o)
...... Apologies do make a difference ... Have you ever tried?
:o)
If you're talking about Bush and Blair's characters, I think they're pretty much assassinating themselves quite successfully anyway.
Aside from that, you're absolutely right when you say there are very few cultures or peoples without blood on their hands. This is one point I always argue.
The British, or even more specifically, the English, have been responsible for a shitty lot of stuff. I always find myself apologising for it ... I never caused any of it, but it always makes the other person feel better when I do. So, I'll carry on apologising, and meaning it when I do, and making people feel better. If that's not repairing damage I don't know what is.
The best place to start from is an apology. It's got to be for the other party to even want to start to listen to what you have to say. If you can't get part that then any reparation becomes even harder to forge. Why make it even more difficult?
You say the best thing we are doing is what we're doing now, ridding the world of slavery. But what exactly are you doing?? Off out tonight to make some citizens arrests of slave traders in your area? :o) If only it were so simple. But even that would be something. Let's find them and arrest them. What other ways can we put them out of action? Take away their car keys maybe. There's not much we can do really, right now, apart from talk about it ... If some ideas come out about how to deal with it then maybe we can start.
I reckon one good thing that's being shown about this thread is that we all basically think the slave trade is despicable ... was and still is. As long as there are people around who think like that then there's some hope for stopping it. Yeah, people should know history, and again, maybe historical information is being raised here and people are gaining awareness .. we're not all born knowing everything, though some people think they are. Why berate anyone who hasn't had access to the necessary historical data?? I bet there are huge areas of a myriad other subjects that we all know something or nothing about. And ... ?
I've been reading the threads and I'm not to proud or so far up my own arse to say that I've been made aware of some things that I wasn't aware of before. Great. That's what I'm reading them for, to learn something. Some others are probably doing the same. What's the point of any thread otherwise?
Germans killed Jews, Japanese raped and killed Chinese, and took over the Philippines and Korea.
Every race and every nation has committed some type of human atrocity.
Freedom isn't free. Don't forget that.
That's my 2 cents there. Take what i said as you want. I don't care. Hate me, Disagree with me, Assassinate my character. I don't care...
... That's good then, because you probably won't bother to respond to this :o)
...... Apologies do make a difference ... Have you ever tried?
:o)
If you're talking about Bush and Blair's characters, I think they're pretty much assassinating themselves quite successfully anyway.
Aside from that, you're absolutely right when you say there are very few cultures or peoples without blood on their hands. This is one point I always argue.
The British, or even more specifically, the English, have been responsible for a shitty lot of stuff. I always find myself apologising for it ... I never caused any of it, but it always makes the other person feel better when I do. So, I'll carry on apologising, and meaning it when I do, and making people feel better. If that's not repairing damage I don't know what is.
The best place to start from is an apology. It's got to be for the other party to even want to start to listen to what you have to say. If you can't get part that then any reparation becomes even harder to forge. Why make it even more difficult?
You say the best thing we are doing is what we're doing now, ridding the world of slavery. But what exactly are you doing?? Off out tonight to make some citizens arrests of slave traders in your area? :o) If only it were so simple. But even that would be something. Let's find them and arrest them. What other ways can we put them out of action? Take away their car keys maybe. There's not much we can do really, right now, apart from talk about it ... If some ideas come out about how to deal with it then maybe we can start.
I reckon one good thing that's being shown about this thread is that we all basically think the slave trade is despicable ... was and still is. As long as there are people around who think like that then there's some hope for stopping it. Yeah, people should know history, and again, maybe historical information is being raised here and people are gaining awareness .. we're not all born knowing everything, though some people think they are. Why berate anyone who hasn't had access to the necessary historical data?? I bet there are huge areas of a myriad other subjects that we all know something or nothing about. And ... ?
I've been reading the threads and I'm not to proud or so far up my own arse to say that I've been made aware of some things that I wasn't aware of before. Great. That's what I'm reading them for, to learn something. Some others are probably doing the same. What's the point of any thread otherwise?
Kick ass! I was hoping someone would say something about my post.
My question is, Who do you apologize to?
Everyone and every race is guilty of slavery. So should everyone go around apologizing to everyone for something they as a person didn't do?
That's like telling a smoker to pick up someone else's cigarette butt. Just because they are a smoker. (Lame example, but its the best i could come up with on the spot) But do you get what i mean?
#33
No i wasn't trying to say that everyone Didn't have a point. But a lot of people were just pointing fingers. With no real point. I think it was #10: ハービック comment that set me off. It's ignorant comments like that, that annoy me.
As for the question in #25 (Overlooked it last night)
Even if G.W.Bush said "We white people apologize for all slavery done by the white man" What about every other race? Are white people supposed to apologize to white people for enslaving each other also?
Are the Chiefs of African tribes supposed to apologize to each other for selling their own people off as slaves?
When is the Catholic church going to apologize to the world for killing people who didn't believe in the so called "faith"? I don't see religious people apologizing for what their so called "Moral Religion" did to Millions of people over 1000s of years.
Maybe everyone in the world should just say sorry all at once?
Even if people apologized, there will be many people who will judge the sincerity of the Apology.
There are some things apologies work for, but something to this size, a simple apology doesn't work. (Tiss what i think anyway)
#36
Trust me if I myself, had the capability to do it. I would. I'd be out their in my super man uniform crushing the evil doers. (Tights and all)
I'm not only sorry for what White people did. But I'm sorry for what humanity is. From the bottom of my heart.
My question is, Who do you apologize to?
Everyone and every race is guilty of slavery. So should everyone go around apologizing to everyone for something they as a person didn't do?
That's like telling a smoker to pick up someone else's cigarette butt. Just because they are a smoker. (Lame example, but its the best i could come up with on the spot) But do you get what i mean?
#33
No i wasn't trying to say that everyone Didn't have a point. But a lot of people were just pointing fingers. With no real point. I think it was #10: ハービック comment that set me off. It's ignorant comments like that, that annoy me.
As for the question in #25 (Overlooked it last night)
Even if G.W.Bush said "We white people apologize for all slavery done by the white man" What about every other race? Are white people supposed to apologize to white people for enslaving each other also?
Are the Chiefs of African tribes supposed to apologize to each other for selling their own people off as slaves?
When is the Catholic church going to apologize to the world for killing people who didn't believe in the so called "faith"? I don't see religious people apologizing for what their so called "Moral Religion" did to Millions of people over 1000s of years.
Maybe everyone in the world should just say sorry all at once?
Even if people apologized, there will be many people who will judge the sincerity of the Apology.
There are some things apologies work for, but something to this size, a simple apology doesn't work. (Tiss what i think anyway)
#36
Trust me if I myself, had the capability to do it. I would. I'd be out their in my super man uniform crushing the evil doers. (Tights and all)
I'm not only sorry for what White people did. But I'm sorry for what humanity is. From the bottom of my heart.
> 35: TokyoOG
That was a really good post. Thanks. I think you have summed up a lot of things well. I am hopeful that we can change, human societies that is. Change is slow and in small incremental pieces, I think.
I think citizens of developed countries are increasing their learning and understanding that our resources are finite and we must protect and nurture our environment.We have a long way to go, but I think we are slowly getting better at looking after the "people, animals, trees, etc." as you say.
> 33: ... (et al)
I don't know why people seem to be skirting around your issues so much. I get your point, and did from your first post.
I think we do need a soul-searching approach to these issues - to reflect and be prepared to openly look at our attitudes without being defensive.
I think for people who feel racially aggrieved some kind of forum based on mechanisms like the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa are worth considering.Places where people can vent their feelings and get recognition and even forgiveness for perpetrators (or perhaps their descendants?).
That's all debatable, but I just wanted to say that I think it is a good thing for us, and specifically here for those of us who are Caucasian, to be a little introspective, and examine our attitudes even if we think of ourselves as not racist. When it comes to racism, it's not how WE feel that is important, it is how we are perceived by another racial group.
We may think we are being very open and friendly, but what is positive in one culture may be viewed as threatening in another. It helps to be open, non-defensive and receptive to other's ideas or criticisms.
That was a really good post. Thanks. I think you have summed up a lot of things well. I am hopeful that we can change, human societies that is. Change is slow and in small incremental pieces, I think.
I think citizens of developed countries are increasing their learning and understanding that our resources are finite and we must protect and nurture our environment.We have a long way to go, but I think we are slowly getting better at looking after the "people, animals, trees, etc." as you say.
> 33: ... (et al)
I don't know why people seem to be skirting around your issues so much. I get your point, and did from your first post.
I think we do need a soul-searching approach to these issues - to reflect and be prepared to openly look at our attitudes without being defensive.
I think for people who feel racially aggrieved some kind of forum based on mechanisms like the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa are worth considering.Places where people can vent their feelings and get recognition and even forgiveness for perpetrators (or perhaps their descendants?).
That's all debatable, but I just wanted to say that I think it is a good thing for us, and specifically here for those of us who are Caucasian, to be a little introspective, and examine our attitudes even if we think of ourselves as not racist. When it comes to racism, it's not how WE feel that is important, it is how we are perceived by another racial group.
We may think we are being very open and friendly, but what is positive in one culture may be viewed as threatening in another. It helps to be open, non-defensive and receptive to other's ideas or criticisms.
37> hey there ウィール,
Yeah I'm suprised you didn't get more people responding to you there, because it was a very good post - with a lot of crunchy details in it too....
The question I really wanted to pose, wasn't about GW et al - I said that I'm not sure *how* we could apologize as a race or society at the top of <25>...
But I think we can start to tackle it on an individual level at least. That doesn't particularly mean any outward action either. The question I was talking about was at the bottom of <23>...it's introspective, and white people need to ask it of themselves (I can't talk about other races, because as I said at the bottom of <33> I feel like it's not for me to do/not my problem) and this is what the question is ;
Why do white people feel the need to present non-racist credentials so strongly? Distance themselves from the events of History?
Could it be because deep down we do feel that it's the White man's fault?
However, we are not readily prepared to come out and verbalize as much.
That's why we love to come out and deplore Slavery, without admitting we were complicit in it (once), or that just as minorities (might) still bear the emotional scars of it, so (might) we still bear the ideological underpinning.
Also I think what white people have just assumed is the "right" thing to do, doesn't have a lot to do with what minorities actually want us to. We just do what feels most comfortable - the big example for me is the Celebrities who got caught blurting out racist language...and then the common demand (from the white majority) is to appear on TV and say sorry.
It appeases our egos in a way..."see! we demanded Kramer say sorry - we're not racist like him"
But reading a few threads about this of late, seeing comment in the news - the people who were targeted by the insults, said they didn't want/care about the apology.
In-fact the apex of it was, I saw an African-American comedian on one news show, who made some really excellent points about the Kramer episode. Points that were very uncomfortable for the white anchor men, and the largely white audience I'm sure (the majority of Americans are white aren't they?).
They cut him off, then went to a commerical break by the way.
When asked by the Anchor man if he was offended by Kramer's outburst, he said "no"
The anchor man said "what!?"
he said "yeah, because we know you all think it...Michael (whatever his name is)...he just came out and said it"
the anchor man said "but you have to be offended!?"
the guy said "yeah I should be, but you know it's not such an amazing thing for me - I've been called that hundreds of times"
he continued to the anchor man
"are you telling me that word has never gone through your head?"
the anchor was so quick to blurt out "no!"
the comedian says "cooooome on..."
"no"
"never?"
"no"
"you've never had that word go through your head?"
"no"
and that's where they cut him off....
I think we all know that oh so tender word even I'm afraid to type here must have gone through the 60+ white anchor man's head at least once in his life. I'm 28 and I've heard it more times, had it go through my head more times, than I'd care to count....
Why is the white guy *so* afraid to admit that he's had that thought?
Also why does the white anchor man demand the African-American be offended? He needs someone who the insult was actually directed toward to validate what he thinks his reaction should be.
The initial "no" was just a knee jerk reaction - no one wants to appear like they are a racist, that's why Klaus gets so pent up if I even question why he has to tell us about the first African he ever met.
I know Klaus is a reasonable, good guy, from other posts of his I've read elsewhere, so there's no question in my mind about his non-racist credentials. He doesn't need to tell anyone about them/shouldn't feel the need to, and if we do, doesn't it point to some big unconfronted fear in White people?
I mean, it's the year 2007, shouldn't we just assume it as given nowadays? Isn't it kind of anti-progress not to do so?
Why can't the white anchor go back and say "sorry, I said 'no', but yeah ofcourse that word has gone through my head"
Which course of action appeases the comedian better, that one or what he actually said?
What he actually said just increases the comedians cynicism about the what he thinks White people really think.
Yet white people insist this is the way to go...
Doesn't that seem a little weird to you?
Shouldn't we be listening to what minorities say we should do to beat racism?
Wouldn't that be treating people as equals?
So, not listening to them and coming out super "right-on" and PC based on what *we* think that should be, is a bit like the same mindset white people had in History when they didn't consider Slaves worthy of equal treatment?
Aren't we just patronizing them a little with apologies on Letterman, with your best friend Jerry Seinfeld to hold your hand?
etc
The answer to all that might be "no"
I wanted to hear what people thought, so I asked it...
>That's like telling a smoker to pick up someone else's cigarette butt. Just because they are a smoker. (Lame example, but its the best i could come up with on the spot) But do you get what i mean?
Totally get what you mean.
My position is, with your smoking example, why don't smokers feel guilty about (other) smokers flicking cigarette butts?
I know the obvious answer there is, "get real!".....it's not *my* problem other people flick cigarette butts.
Why should I clean up after some dickhead?
and why should I feel guilty?
because by just smoking, non-smokers will look at you and group you together with *all* smokers. Wether you like it or not. Some who flick cigarette butts will create a perception that all smokers do that. By just saying "I don't flick cigarette butts!" you aren't doing anything wrong, but you won't change the non-smokers perception. When you say that....they'll probably just think "yeah right".
No matter how many "I don't flick cigarette butts!!" campaigns you do, it won't change, it might even increase skepticism - non smokers will think you've got something to hide perhaps....
I think a more accurate example would be that ;
White people (in this example) are not smokers, but we all have cigarettes attached to our hand.
A small percantage of us, actually go ahead and light the cigarette...
Even fewer go on and flick that cigarette butt after their smoke (I know I said the cigarette was attached, but just buy into it for a moment).
Even though most of don't smoke, we hold a cigarette in our hands, and the non-smokers (people without cigarettes attached to their hand) see that and automatically label us "smokers".
We're can't get the cigarettes out of our hand (maybe we were born that way etc 笑), but we have to address the fact, a lot of us might actually crave that cigarette, if not now then in recent history, and that deeper into history smoking was the norm, and flicking the butt was an accepted practice.
However, we have now advanced as a society of people with cigarettes stuck to their hand - and we recoginize that smoking was wrong because of health hazards to us, health endangering to non-smokers, and to subject them to that was immoral.
We might even consider paying the health bills of all the cancers we caused to non-smokers, bills we had once promised to pay I might add.
Well I put that whole thing in smoking, cancer, littering terms - but I hope you can extrapolate the race parallels.
That's how I see it anyway....
>Maybe everyone in the world should just say sorry all at once?
Yeah I get what you were saying on that whole area. And there's no flaw in your logic....
What I'd say is the people who still condone/deal in/protect the Slave trade are in a different soceital situation or state of awareness than most of us who have been living in Secular Democracy for over hundreds of years now.
Your example of Mauritania was good because it begs the question, in country that had a military coup only 2 years ago can you really expect they could be tackling such advanced civic issues as the need to reconcile with their barbaric past, and the effect that had on the collective consciousness of a segment their population, or asking themselves questions like how far as a society they have really come in really doing that?
You couldn't expect that of Maurtitania.
Not to say as people they are incapable per say....
They might have a different moral code (to us) to worry about...
But it's irrelevant really, we shouldn't just wait for others to do it, or expect everyone to join in....just because all humans have done bad stuff.
You have to remember we Westerners have come out with the philosophy that Slavery is morally corrupt.
But it doesn't mean the rest of the World has.
So we stamp out Slavery for them, wether they like it or not.
But have we, really, turned that judgement on oursleves?
35> hey there TokyoOG,
Just a quick one ;
"The post in this thread seemed sincere to me and no offense was taken"
If you're talking about Klaus, Chris, myself on numerous occasions, a lot of white people generally - I don't think anyone could take offence to our stories.
And I didn't when they typed as much here....
Regardless of my question to them...I was mildly insulted they both demand I "get back on topic". That was distasteful to me....
But no great shakes - this is the internet after all.
So in <23> I put a proposition up...
But...ah forget it.
Yeah I'm suprised you didn't get more people responding to you there, because it was a very good post - with a lot of crunchy details in it too....
The question I really wanted to pose, wasn't about GW et al - I said that I'm not sure *how* we could apologize as a race or society at the top of <25>...
But I think we can start to tackle it on an individual level at least. That doesn't particularly mean any outward action either. The question I was talking about was at the bottom of <23>...it's introspective, and white people need to ask it of themselves (I can't talk about other races, because as I said at the bottom of <33> I feel like it's not for me to do/not my problem) and this is what the question is ;
Why do white people feel the need to present non-racist credentials so strongly? Distance themselves from the events of History?
Could it be because deep down we do feel that it's the White man's fault?
However, we are not readily prepared to come out and verbalize as much.
That's why we love to come out and deplore Slavery, without admitting we were complicit in it (once), or that just as minorities (might) still bear the emotional scars of it, so (might) we still bear the ideological underpinning.
Also I think what white people have just assumed is the "right" thing to do, doesn't have a lot to do with what minorities actually want us to. We just do what feels most comfortable - the big example for me is the Celebrities who got caught blurting out racist language...and then the common demand (from the white majority) is to appear on TV and say sorry.
It appeases our egos in a way..."see! we demanded Kramer say sorry - we're not racist like him"
But reading a few threads about this of late, seeing comment in the news - the people who were targeted by the insults, said they didn't want/care about the apology.
In-fact the apex of it was, I saw an African-American comedian on one news show, who made some really excellent points about the Kramer episode. Points that were very uncomfortable for the white anchor men, and the largely white audience I'm sure (the majority of Americans are white aren't they?).
They cut him off, then went to a commerical break by the way.
When asked by the Anchor man if he was offended by Kramer's outburst, he said "no"
The anchor man said "what!?"
he said "yeah, because we know you all think it...Michael (whatever his name is)...he just came out and said it"
the anchor man said "but you have to be offended!?"
the guy said "yeah I should be, but you know it's not such an amazing thing for me - I've been called that hundreds of times"
he continued to the anchor man
"are you telling me that word has never gone through your head?"
the anchor was so quick to blurt out "no!"
the comedian says "cooooome on..."
"no"
"never?"
"no"
"you've never had that word go through your head?"
"no"
and that's where they cut him off....
I think we all know that oh so tender word even I'm afraid to type here must have gone through the 60+ white anchor man's head at least once in his life. I'm 28 and I've heard it more times, had it go through my head more times, than I'd care to count....
Why is the white guy *so* afraid to admit that he's had that thought?
Also why does the white anchor man demand the African-American be offended? He needs someone who the insult was actually directed toward to validate what he thinks his reaction should be.
The initial "no" was just a knee jerk reaction - no one wants to appear like they are a racist, that's why Klaus gets so pent up if I even question why he has to tell us about the first African he ever met.
I know Klaus is a reasonable, good guy, from other posts of his I've read elsewhere, so there's no question in my mind about his non-racist credentials. He doesn't need to tell anyone about them/shouldn't feel the need to, and if we do, doesn't it point to some big unconfronted fear in White people?
I mean, it's the year 2007, shouldn't we just assume it as given nowadays? Isn't it kind of anti-progress not to do so?
Why can't the white anchor go back and say "sorry, I said 'no', but yeah ofcourse that word has gone through my head"
Which course of action appeases the comedian better, that one or what he actually said?
What he actually said just increases the comedians cynicism about the what he thinks White people really think.
Yet white people insist this is the way to go...
Doesn't that seem a little weird to you?
Shouldn't we be listening to what minorities say we should do to beat racism?
Wouldn't that be treating people as equals?
So, not listening to them and coming out super "right-on" and PC based on what *we* think that should be, is a bit like the same mindset white people had in History when they didn't consider Slaves worthy of equal treatment?
Aren't we just patronizing them a little with apologies on Letterman, with your best friend Jerry Seinfeld to hold your hand?
etc
The answer to all that might be "no"
I wanted to hear what people thought, so I asked it...
>That's like telling a smoker to pick up someone else's cigarette butt. Just because they are a smoker. (Lame example, but its the best i could come up with on the spot) But do you get what i mean?
Totally get what you mean.
My position is, with your smoking example, why don't smokers feel guilty about (other) smokers flicking cigarette butts?
I know the obvious answer there is, "get real!".....it's not *my* problem other people flick cigarette butts.
Why should I clean up after some dickhead?
and why should I feel guilty?
because by just smoking, non-smokers will look at you and group you together with *all* smokers. Wether you like it or not. Some who flick cigarette butts will create a perception that all smokers do that. By just saying "I don't flick cigarette butts!" you aren't doing anything wrong, but you won't change the non-smokers perception. When you say that....they'll probably just think "yeah right".
No matter how many "I don't flick cigarette butts!!" campaigns you do, it won't change, it might even increase skepticism - non smokers will think you've got something to hide perhaps....
I think a more accurate example would be that ;
White people (in this example) are not smokers, but we all have cigarettes attached to our hand.
A small percantage of us, actually go ahead and light the cigarette...
Even fewer go on and flick that cigarette butt after their smoke (I know I said the cigarette was attached, but just buy into it for a moment).
Even though most of don't smoke, we hold a cigarette in our hands, and the non-smokers (people without cigarettes attached to their hand) see that and automatically label us "smokers".
We're can't get the cigarettes out of our hand (maybe we were born that way etc 笑), but we have to address the fact, a lot of us might actually crave that cigarette, if not now then in recent history, and that deeper into history smoking was the norm, and flicking the butt was an accepted practice.
However, we have now advanced as a society of people with cigarettes stuck to their hand - and we recoginize that smoking was wrong because of health hazards to us, health endangering to non-smokers, and to subject them to that was immoral.
We might even consider paying the health bills of all the cancers we caused to non-smokers, bills we had once promised to pay I might add.
Well I put that whole thing in smoking, cancer, littering terms - but I hope you can extrapolate the race parallels.
That's how I see it anyway....
>Maybe everyone in the world should just say sorry all at once?
Yeah I get what you were saying on that whole area. And there's no flaw in your logic....
What I'd say is the people who still condone/deal in/protect the Slave trade are in a different soceital situation or state of awareness than most of us who have been living in Secular Democracy for over hundreds of years now.
Your example of Mauritania was good because it begs the question, in country that had a military coup only 2 years ago can you really expect they could be tackling such advanced civic issues as the need to reconcile with their barbaric past, and the effect that had on the collective consciousness of a segment their population, or asking themselves questions like how far as a society they have really come in really doing that?
You couldn't expect that of Maurtitania.
Not to say as people they are incapable per say....
They might have a different moral code (to us) to worry about...
But it's irrelevant really, we shouldn't just wait for others to do it, or expect everyone to join in....just because all humans have done bad stuff.
You have to remember we Westerners have come out with the philosophy that Slavery is morally corrupt.
But it doesn't mean the rest of the World has.
So we stamp out Slavery for them, wether they like it or not.
But have we, really, turned that judgement on oursleves?
35> hey there TokyoOG,
Just a quick one ;
"The post in this thread seemed sincere to me and no offense was taken"
If you're talking about Klaus, Chris, myself on numerous occasions, a lot of white people generally - I don't think anyone could take offence to our stories.
And I didn't when they typed as much here....
Regardless of my question to them...I was mildly insulted they both demand I "get back on topic". That was distasteful to me....
But no great shakes - this is the internet after all.
So in <23> I put a proposition up...
But...ah forget it.
#38 >btw, Anyone useing Mixi automatically has access to millions of historical information. Unless they are too lazy to use the mouse button.
I thought you didn't care ... lol :o) Why did you have to spoil everything and respond.
Of course. But the point is ... unless they read something like this maybe they won't even consider clicking the mouse button, not out of laziness maybe, but just out of lack of awareness or prior consideration for the subject matter. You can go on and blame them for not taking notice or finding out beforehand, but if the awareness isn't there in the first place, or they just haven't contemplated it then this would or might be a starting point. I reckon almost every post on this thread has some value.
Also, to think that a thread or forum is only for people who have special knowledge or prior knowledge makes it a little exclusive and smacks of (moderate) elitism ... supremacy :o/? ... The sort of stuff that gives rise to things like the slave trade and people trafficking in the first place. A person using knowledge to make like they're better than someone else because of it, smarter than someone else, higher on the social or evolutionary scale than someone else amounts to about the same as people who do that kind of thing with material commodities and money. It's a bit crass.
Plus, being able to read Wikipedia doesn't or shouldn't make a person an 'expert' with exclusive knowledge. It just makes them more aware of the subject matter in hand.
If you're lacking a Superman suit, you can borrow mine. I'm off duty til this evening.
And please don't call me a kiss ass ... if that was directed at me ... you don't know me well enough. :o)
I thought you didn't care ... lol :o) Why did you have to spoil everything and respond.
Of course. But the point is ... unless they read something like this maybe they won't even consider clicking the mouse button, not out of laziness maybe, but just out of lack of awareness or prior consideration for the subject matter. You can go on and blame them for not taking notice or finding out beforehand, but if the awareness isn't there in the first place, or they just haven't contemplated it then this would or might be a starting point. I reckon almost every post on this thread has some value.
Also, to think that a thread or forum is only for people who have special knowledge or prior knowledge makes it a little exclusive and smacks of (moderate) elitism ... supremacy :o/? ... The sort of stuff that gives rise to things like the slave trade and people trafficking in the first place. A person using knowledge to make like they're better than someone else because of it, smarter than someone else, higher on the social or evolutionary scale than someone else amounts to about the same as people who do that kind of thing with material commodities and money. It's a bit crass.
Plus, being able to read Wikipedia doesn't or shouldn't make a person an 'expert' with exclusive knowledge. It just makes them more aware of the subject matter in hand.
If you're lacking a Superman suit, you can borrow mine. I'm off duty til this evening.
And please don't call me a kiss ass ... if that was directed at me ... you don't know me well enough. :o)
#37> Even if people apologized, there will be many people who will judge the sincerity of the Apology.
There are some things apologies work for, but something to this size, a simple apology doesn't work. (Tiss what i think anyway)
I see your point here, but apology is still a pretty positive point to start from whilst implementing whatever action comes next to reinforce the apology and to give the reparation more ground.
I always think of the stuff the English did to the Scottish way back ... yeah, I watched Braveheart lol .. but the Scots still hate us for it in certain areas. And fair play to them. I don't blame them. We tried to suppress them. But if they're still hating the English then that's not good either. Same goes for the Irish or the Welsh ... whoever. Now, I don't have any beef with people from Scotland (or Wales). I think they're great people. I can honestly say I've never had a bad thought about them, but it bothers me at times that some of them are walking around with a hatred for the English. Naturally, I'd like to rectify that. On a personal level all I can do is apologise if I think that's what the person is looking for and if I feel I should. I've done it couple of times and by the end of the evening we've become best drinking buddies, and ther goes a Scotlander who thinks, "well, maybe the English aren't all bad". My job is done and I can remove my Superman cape, and get the last bus home, if I'm lucky.
Admittedly, apologies aren't always accepted but a good place to start from. Maybe not the only place, but not a bad place.
I think of the Scottish also, as my great grandfather was a Scot.
There are some things apologies work for, but something to this size, a simple apology doesn't work. (Tiss what i think anyway)
I see your point here, but apology is still a pretty positive point to start from whilst implementing whatever action comes next to reinforce the apology and to give the reparation more ground.
I always think of the stuff the English did to the Scottish way back ... yeah, I watched Braveheart lol .. but the Scots still hate us for it in certain areas. And fair play to them. I don't blame them. We tried to suppress them. But if they're still hating the English then that's not good either. Same goes for the Irish or the Welsh ... whoever. Now, I don't have any beef with people from Scotland (or Wales). I think they're great people. I can honestly say I've never had a bad thought about them, but it bothers me at times that some of them are walking around with a hatred for the English. Naturally, I'd like to rectify that. On a personal level all I can do is apologise if I think that's what the person is looking for and if I feel I should. I've done it couple of times and by the end of the evening we've become best drinking buddies, and ther goes a Scotlander who thinks, "well, maybe the English aren't all bad". My job is done and I can remove my Superman cape, and get the last bus home, if I'm lucky.
Admittedly, apologies aren't always accepted but a good place to start from. Maybe not the only place, but not a bad place.
I think of the Scottish also, as my great grandfather was a Scot.
#41
Hmmm.. That's a good question. I'd be lying if i said i never said/thought it before. Joking or out of anger. I think it's because most people are afraid to be tagged as a racist.
But i also think, That most people believe if a white person does or say anything even slightly racist. They are tagged as racist. You go to high schools and you'll see clubs for all kinds of races. But, A white club? Ohhh boy.. That would certainly stir up a lot of trouble.
So most people fear admitting anything.
I kind of think there is a stigma attached to white people. So white people try to act as non-racist as possible. If a Filipino person says , "Wassup nigger" to their friend, more or less it's acceptable. But if a white person were to do that in public. I'm more then sure they would get a lot of strange looks or negative responses.
As for flicking cigarette butts on the ground. I get extremely irritated. I bought a few Pocket Ash trays well i was in Japan. For the soul reason of not littering the ground with my bad habit. Also, so my girlfriend would stop scolding me. The Japanese seem to be pretty good at not littering the ground with the butts. I wonder why American's can't do it.
As for dishing out money for the troubles from Cigarettes causing health problems.. Philipe Morrise dishes out tons of money due to Law Suites. Not that it matters to them. Cause they can make that money back in no time.
(But i get what you mean)
#44
Okay, I admit i was being a little extreme. =P
I go a little over-board sometimes on things like this. I'm a little addicted to facts not opinions sometimes. So i got a little extreme. >.<;;
By the way, I'm going to take you up on the offer! I'll need it in the morning.
Also, I said ""Kick" Ass" as in "Yaay" or "Alright!" Not "Kiss Ass". I try to refrain from such vulgarity.
Well, I'll most certainly give apologies a try.
Hmmm.. That's a good question. I'd be lying if i said i never said/thought it before. Joking or out of anger. I think it's because most people are afraid to be tagged as a racist.
But i also think, That most people believe if a white person does or say anything even slightly racist. They are tagged as racist. You go to high schools and you'll see clubs for all kinds of races. But, A white club? Ohhh boy.. That would certainly stir up a lot of trouble.
So most people fear admitting anything.
I kind of think there is a stigma attached to white people. So white people try to act as non-racist as possible. If a Filipino person says , "Wassup nigger" to their friend, more or less it's acceptable. But if a white person were to do that in public. I'm more then sure they would get a lot of strange looks or negative responses.
As for flicking cigarette butts on the ground. I get extremely irritated. I bought a few Pocket Ash trays well i was in Japan. For the soul reason of not littering the ground with my bad habit. Also, so my girlfriend would stop scolding me. The Japanese seem to be pretty good at not littering the ground with the butts. I wonder why American's can't do it.
As for dishing out money for the troubles from Cigarettes causing health problems.. Philipe Morrise dishes out tons of money due to Law Suites. Not that it matters to them. Cause they can make that money back in no time.
(But i get what you mean)
#44
Okay, I admit i was being a little extreme. =P
I go a little over-board sometimes on things like this. I'm a little addicted to facts not opinions sometimes. So i got a little extreme. >.<;;
By the way, I'm going to take you up on the offer! I'll need it in the morning.
Also, I said ""Kick" Ass" as in "Yaay" or "Alright!" Not "Kiss Ass". I try to refrain from such vulgarity.
Well, I'll most certainly give apologies a try.
47> hey ウィール,
yeah the whole cigarette story was just a metaphor...
cigarette in the hand people = White
non-smokers = Black, Minorities, whatever
Cancer for the smokers = damage to our morality/soul?
Cancer for the non-smokers = damage to their psyche?
Flicking a cigarette butt = Slavery
Smoking = racism
Health costs = reparations
etc
but it's hard to squeeze my point of view into your cigarette butt analogy.
As far as actual smoking goes, I think you know my thinking there from the other thread. And good fun it was too.
"They are tagged as racist. You go to high schools and you'll see clubs for all kinds of races. But, A white club?"
That's my whole point. Why can't we have a white club?
Perhaps because he haven't addressed this problem properly and we know it.
OK now this is hard↓
43> Hello Klaus,
Klaus I had written a very long post for you before lunch but I just scratched the whole thing....
Here's the digest version, take it or leave it.
Now this will probably make you angry but ;
"The point I wanted to make
was that due to this friendship I learned quite a lot
about respecting and accepting others and not judging
anyone by race, sex, religion or whatever."
Is that new or enlightening to anyone in 2007?
Yes I realize it was life changing for you. Good for you too Klaus....
But I've heard that mantra my whole life. I'm 28.
Sometime after I had seen the light of day, in around the 1980s, I was brought up on Sesame St. Klaus. I watched multi-cultural/multi-ethnic role models, and heard that message again and again and again.
Then I went to school and saw white kids shouting "Paki!" to (south) Asians wether they were from Pakistan or not...
I saw black kids called "nigger"
I saw Jewish kids battered for being Jews
I saw anykind of physical deformity mercilessly ridiculed.
(notice how I don't need to say "by the white kids" but you already know it was the white kids)
And I know the people who did it watched Seasme St. too - and liked it.
We did also learn about the Slave trade at school, but it was taught in a distant way, such that the white kids don't feel like shit. But you know, I think it just gave them more ammunition for play-time. "Go home!" etc
Honestly Klaus I didn't realize you were so much older than me. I think in your experience you would never have had such a multi-ethnic school.
So your generation can really believe in that Sesame St. message, you are a lot more positive. Even naive for some strange reason. Whereas I think my generation is cynical, and I think even younger people like ウィール for instance are *even* more so.
Is constantly repeating that message/mindset working for us White people Klaus?
I'm not saying it's wrong. Who could argue with the concept?
What I'm saying is where's the progress to made as a race when we keep patting ourselves on the back and wishing the World was really like that?
When it isn't.
It isn't Klaus.
We have to go a little further a do some stuff that we don't want to do. Ever heard the body-building expression "no pain, no gain".
We're not gonna be moral Lou Ferrignos if we keep saying "well I met a black person once a they were a really nice person, so now I know that racism is wrong, and Slavery was awful, and we have to tolerate all people of any creed or color"
even though the content isn't wrong....
But does it infer that you are now exempt from anykind of responsibility for the events of history?
You know I think nearly all white people would say "yes!"...
But that's kind of a moot point Klaus...
What do the minorities whose ancestors were on the recieving end think?
Has anyone actually asked them?
Do white people really want to hear that answer?
Where's the progress when a guy who got caught shouting "nigger, nigger, he's a nigger! A hundred years ago you'd be strung up on a tree by your balls" only says 'sorry'. And only to a mainly white audience (who kept sniggering through the whole thing) on a white man's TV show, and only if his white PC friend would hold his hand while he did it? And that guy was a major public personality...
Why isn't he on B.E.T?
Why not in Harlem?
Why do we even give him airtime?
Who really wanted that apology?
Yeah give CRASH an Oscar to show how far we've come, then watch Rosie O'Donnell say "chong chong chong" on primetime TV.
That's reality Klaus....
That's how far we've come...
long long long way to go - and we aren't even going in the right direction (in my opinion)
Finally you said
"Appreciating any on-topic posts!"
(or words to that effect)
That was insulting Klaus.
but no hard feelings on my part anyway....
all the best
yeah the whole cigarette story was just a metaphor...
cigarette in the hand people = White
non-smokers = Black, Minorities, whatever
Cancer for the smokers = damage to our morality/soul?
Cancer for the non-smokers = damage to their psyche?
Flicking a cigarette butt = Slavery
Smoking = racism
Health costs = reparations
etc
but it's hard to squeeze my point of view into your cigarette butt analogy.
As far as actual smoking goes, I think you know my thinking there from the other thread. And good fun it was too.
"They are tagged as racist. You go to high schools and you'll see clubs for all kinds of races. But, A white club?"
That's my whole point. Why can't we have a white club?
Perhaps because he haven't addressed this problem properly and we know it.
OK now this is hard↓
43> Hello Klaus,
Klaus I had written a very long post for you before lunch but I just scratched the whole thing....
Here's the digest version, take it or leave it.
Now this will probably make you angry but ;
"The point I wanted to make
was that due to this friendship I learned quite a lot
about respecting and accepting others and not judging
anyone by race, sex, religion or whatever."
Is that new or enlightening to anyone in 2007?
Yes I realize it was life changing for you. Good for you too Klaus....
But I've heard that mantra my whole life. I'm 28.
Sometime after I had seen the light of day, in around the 1980s, I was brought up on Sesame St. Klaus. I watched multi-cultural/multi-ethnic role models, and heard that message again and again and again.
Then I went to school and saw white kids shouting "Paki!" to (south) Asians wether they were from Pakistan or not...
I saw black kids called "nigger"
I saw Jewish kids battered for being Jews
I saw anykind of physical deformity mercilessly ridiculed.
(notice how I don't need to say "by the white kids" but you already know it was the white kids)
And I know the people who did it watched Seasme St. too - and liked it.
We did also learn about the Slave trade at school, but it was taught in a distant way, such that the white kids don't feel like shit. But you know, I think it just gave them more ammunition for play-time. "Go home!" etc
Honestly Klaus I didn't realize you were so much older than me. I think in your experience you would never have had such a multi-ethnic school.
So your generation can really believe in that Sesame St. message, you are a lot more positive. Even naive for some strange reason. Whereas I think my generation is cynical, and I think even younger people like ウィール for instance are *even* more so.
Is constantly repeating that message/mindset working for us White people Klaus?
I'm not saying it's wrong. Who could argue with the concept?
What I'm saying is where's the progress to made as a race when we keep patting ourselves on the back and wishing the World was really like that?
When it isn't.
It isn't Klaus.
We have to go a little further a do some stuff that we don't want to do. Ever heard the body-building expression "no pain, no gain".
We're not gonna be moral Lou Ferrignos if we keep saying "well I met a black person once a they were a really nice person, so now I know that racism is wrong, and Slavery was awful, and we have to tolerate all people of any creed or color"
even though the content isn't wrong....
But does it infer that you are now exempt from anykind of responsibility for the events of history?
You know I think nearly all white people would say "yes!"...
But that's kind of a moot point Klaus...
What do the minorities whose ancestors were on the recieving end think?
Has anyone actually asked them?
Do white people really want to hear that answer?
Where's the progress when a guy who got caught shouting "nigger, nigger, he's a nigger! A hundred years ago you'd be strung up on a tree by your balls" only says 'sorry'. And only to a mainly white audience (who kept sniggering through the whole thing) on a white man's TV show, and only if his white PC friend would hold his hand while he did it? And that guy was a major public personality...
Why isn't he on B.E.T?
Why not in Harlem?
Why do we even give him airtime?
Who really wanted that apology?
Yeah give CRASH an Oscar to show how far we've come, then watch Rosie O'Donnell say "chong chong chong" on primetime TV.
That's reality Klaus....
That's how far we've come...
long long long way to go - and we aren't even going in the right direction (in my opinion)
Finally you said
"Appreciating any on-topic posts!"
(or words to that effect)
That was insulting Klaus.
but no hard feelings on my part anyway....
all the best
>#47
Hey ... that's ok. I'm afraid the morning shift is out ... I have some spare blue spandex tights though ... I think I'm giving away too much here. lol
Facts and figures are fine. I've learned a lot from stuff peole have been putting on this thread. It's just when some people get the, 'I know this and you don't, therefore you're daft and I'm not' attitude that gets up my nose.
Hey ... that's ok. I'm afraid the morning shift is out ... I have some spare blue spandex tights though ... I think I'm giving away too much here. lol
Facts and figures are fine. I've learned a lot from stuff peole have been putting on this thread. It's just when some people get the, 'I know this and you don't, therefore you're daft and I'm not' attitude that gets up my nose.
- mixiユーザー
- ログインしてコメントしよう！
|
|
|
|
☆ENGLISH ONLY☆ 更新情報
-
最新のアンケート
