Hi ! I was really curious to get a Japanese perspective on this. I find Bobby Ologun to be very offensive. (my opinion in my blog at http://
In the U.S. we are taught to be culturally sensitive. We should not stereotype people, and the media is assumed to have a responsibility not to promote cultural stereotypes. (I am not saying this always happens, but it is a common belief.) Some foreign talent on Japanese TV, however are not "talent" but just people who are just laughed at and made fun of. While many "white" gaijin talent (Dave Spector, Peter Barakan, Patrick Herman) are college educated, articulate and very intelligent, the images of blacks on Japanese TV seem to be somewhat (if not very) ignorant.
My question is : Are there any Japanese who (like many foreigners) are also offended by Bobb Sapp and Bobby Ologun ???
In the U.S. we are taught to be culturally sensitive. We should not stereotype people, and the media is assumed to have a responsibility not to promote cultural stereotypes. (I am not saying this always happens, but it is a common belief.) Some foreign talent on Japanese TV, however are not "talent" but just people who are just laughed at and made fun of. While many "white" gaijin talent (Dave Spector, Peter Barakan, Patrick Herman) are college educated, articulate and very intelligent, the images of blacks on Japanese TV seem to be somewhat (if not very) ignorant.
My question is : Are there any Japanese who (like many foreigners) are also offended by Bobb Sapp and Bobby Ologun ???
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コメント(36)
cultural sensitivety? we'll have none of that!
p.s. dave spector makes me wanna puke...
p.p.s. are there any other foreign employees who have been fucked over by their japanese employers who, unlike bobby, have no muscle to do anything about it? we are rightly pissed off!! long live bobby!!
p.p.p.s. how about the portrayal of african americans in AMERICAN media/movies/NEW ORLEANS?
p.s. dave spector makes me wanna puke...
p.p.s. are there any other foreign employees who have been fucked over by their japanese employers who, unlike bobby, have no muscle to do anything about it? we are rightly pissed off!! long live bobby!!
p.p.p.s. how about the portrayal of african americans in AMERICAN media/movies/NEW ORLEANS?
Well, I was screwed over... and the NUGW did help me out.
I wouldn't suggest following in his footsteps though. Celebrities get far better treatment in police custody than regular people.
Violence doesn't solve anything - - unless you're a really big world superpower with a lot of nukes and a cowboy for president then it can be a lot of fun.
AMERICAN media/movies>> Needs improvement, of course.
Dave Spector... Annoying, but intelligent. He seems to have changed for the better a bit in recent years from a "comedian" to a commentator.
I wouldn't suggest following in his footsteps though. Celebrities get far better treatment in police custody than regular people.
Violence doesn't solve anything - - unless you're a really big world superpower with a lot of nukes and a cowboy for president then it can be a lot of fun.
AMERICAN media/movies>> Needs improvement, of course.
Dave Spector... Annoying, but intelligent. He seems to have changed for the better a bit in recent years from a "comedian" to a commentator.
Well I've only watched him on TV a couple of times so I definitely don't qualify as a Bobby expert, but I don't understand what's so offensive about him. From my limited viewpoint, Bobby is a funny guy, knows how to laugh at himself, and has a sense of humour.
His recent "fight" with his management was an unfortunate incident, and I don't condone violence either. We just have to wait and see how it comes out. Bobby insists that he did not start it, and I have no reason to not believe him at this point.
His recent "fight" with his management was an unfortunate incident, and I don't condone violence either. We just have to wait and see how it comes out. Bobby insists that he did not start it, and I have no reason to not believe him at this point.
You don't find anything wrong or embaressing with this http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1289412347918924556&q=bobby+ologun
I suggest watching the movie BAMBOOZLED (Spike Lee) for a deeper perspective.
If I'm mistaken, didn't he have another physical alteration with a DIET MEMBER (congress, not Jenny Craig?)
I suggest watching the movie BAMBOOZLED (Spike Lee) for a deeper perspective.
If I'm mistaken, didn't he have another physical alteration with a DIET MEMBER (congress, not Jenny Craig?)
Hi エディー. I watched the "Hey, Hey, Hey" video clip. I tried to figure out what you could possibly find wrong or embarrassing about it, but to no avail. It may have to do with the fact that I am Japanese and know the nature of the show. Bobby was funny as hell, the Downtown pair was doing their job just as usual, and Ayumi Hamasaki didn't even talk much, let alone anything bad or inappropriate. I have to ask you - what did YOU find to be so wrong there?
No offence to you, but in case you didn't get it, Bobby made all those mistakes on purpose - he knows exactly what he's doing, and those mistakes spice up the show quite a bit.
No offence to you, but in case you didn't get it, Bobby made all those mistakes on purpose - he knows exactly what he's doing, and those mistakes spice up the show quite a bit.
I think だいはど is right on this one. Bobby knows enough Japanese to get a laugh out of the crowd, and that's not something you can do in synch with other comedians on live TV like that. He's just playing the role of the comedian. Both in Japanese and American comedy people make themselves look dumber than they really are to get laughs, and there's nothing wrong with that. There wasn't any stereotypically offensive references made in the show, and nothing derrogatory. In all honesty I've seen Japanese comedians get bashed way worse than Bobby did. And I watched the clip too, and I thought it was hilarious. And looking at it from both an American and Japanese perspective this plays out as pretty clean comedy.
I think the problem is that Japanese people still know how to laugh at themselves and others without taking it seriously, and too many Americans don't. Yeah, a Japanese person might pick on someone for being a gaijin, but they have no malicious intent behind it. The thing is that he'll go right around and pick on a Japanese guy next.
Stereotypes in Japan aren't evil, which they've unfortunately have become in the US. People have just become way too politically correct in the States to be able to chill and take things at face value (the comedy and enjoyable aspect). You've gotta know how to laugh at yourself before you can laugh at others.
I think the problem is that Japanese people still know how to laugh at themselves and others without taking it seriously, and too many Americans don't. Yeah, a Japanese person might pick on someone for being a gaijin, but they have no malicious intent behind it. The thing is that he'll go right around and pick on a Japanese guy next.
Stereotypes in Japan aren't evil, which they've unfortunately have become in the US. People have just become way too politically correct in the States to be able to chill and take things at face value (the comedy and enjoyable aspect). You've gotta know how to laugh at yourself before you can laugh at others.
but they have no malicious intent behind it. The thing is that he'll go right around and pick on a Japanese guy next.
Stereotypes in Japan aren't evil, which they've unfortunately have become in the US. >>
I agree the intent is not malicious. Again, I'd suggest the movie BAMBOOZLED to put things more in context. Yes, the U.S. is too politically correct. I like Sarah Silverman a lot (www.jesusismagic.com) and she's one of the most politically incorrect comedians ever. - - She steps over the edge, but she's funny just for that reason. We know she's trying to push people's buttons and doesn't believe that stuff and is making fun of people's uptightness. But why is it that all of the white Gaijin talent are usually intelligent and college educated and the black one's guys like Bobby Olugan and Bob Sapp. I think this conveys a very negative image of blacks. If there were many black Gaijin talent it wouldn't be such an issue, but the fact is there are few, and the only images the Japanese public get are this. I agree its not malicious but its not helpful either. The problem is, many Japanese make assumptions about foreigners... in Japan its harmless, but for example when they do it abroad it causes serious problems because people don't like to be racially stereotyped. A good example is that I'm of Jewish ethnicity and I can't tell you how many times I've been told how clever and good at making money my people are by Japanese. This upsets me for two reasons, 1) As I've barely made a salary for 2 years, I'm angry at "my people" for not letting me in on this secret. and 2) The flip side of this remark would be that Jews are tight with money and cunning - - don't trust them, or that all Jews (or blacks, foreigners, etc.) are the same and you can make a blanket statement. - - In the U.S. I might be with an Irish friend, and I might tell an off color Irish joke, and he might respond with an off color Jewish remark, but its funny because we know a lot of different Irish and Jews and are just trying to annoy each other. In Japan, that Jew or (possibly drunk) Irishman might represent their entire race. - - But this leads to insult humor in general in Manzai humor. I can't tell you how many times well meaning Japanese salarymen have put their hand on my stomach and said "debu". The humor of shame and stereotyping is funny ONLY in limited escapable doses. Howard Stern and Andrew Dice Clay (in the U.S.) are funny because you had the CHOICE whether or not to hear them, but in Japan, insult/steretyping type images/humor are inescable.
Anyway, Bobb Olugun goes around acting stupid. He actually speaks very good Japanese, but acts like a monkey. The image of Nigerians in Japan are "phone cards and Scams" and no Bobby Olugun does Amos and Andy.
- - I can tell you one final story to make my point about underlying racism in Japanese society. I owned a business and we had a dispute with the local police, so they went to our rental agency and said that my business was a trouble spot because we had a lot of "Chinese" customers. Besides being untrue, the nuance was that Chinese = foreign criminal activity. Though it is true that there are problems with a certain amount of Nigerian, Iranian and Chinese who do commit crime, there are also many educated people... but when you can replace a word like "Jewish" or "Nigerian" or "American" to become an adjective the result is - - 1) Easy Comedy. 2) Racial Discrimination.
As a final point, my friend who worked for immigration told me that in the office many employee quite openly discussed their opinion of "foreigners", though since I was a white American it was not such a problem. Americans afterall NEVER commit crimes. That's why American cities are so safe !
Agreed... the U.S. goes overboard with PC humor... but I think you are forgetting the history of WHY we go overboard. Conclusion... Bobby Ologun is funny, but what image is he protecting, and if you were black or Nigerian and this was one of the only representatives of your race, would you appreciate young children suddenly making monkey faces or muscles at you all the time and assuming that even if you have a Master's Degree and are a highly educated business man that you're either a sportsman, comedian or monkey?
Conclusion... if you're Japanese, Australian or White American/European the stereotypes are fun and funny because you have a good image already. But if you're southeast asian, Arabic or non-white, the humor is at your expense. (And no, I'm not saying TV shows are blatantly racist and all ethnic humor should be banned.)
Stereotypes in Japan aren't evil, which they've unfortunately have become in the US. >>
I agree the intent is not malicious. Again, I'd suggest the movie BAMBOOZLED to put things more in context. Yes, the U.S. is too politically correct. I like Sarah Silverman a lot (www.jesusismagic.com) and she's one of the most politically incorrect comedians ever. - - She steps over the edge, but she's funny just for that reason. We know she's trying to push people's buttons and doesn't believe that stuff and is making fun of people's uptightness. But why is it that all of the white Gaijin talent are usually intelligent and college educated and the black one's guys like Bobby Olugan and Bob Sapp. I think this conveys a very negative image of blacks. If there were many black Gaijin talent it wouldn't be such an issue, but the fact is there are few, and the only images the Japanese public get are this. I agree its not malicious but its not helpful either. The problem is, many Japanese make assumptions about foreigners... in Japan its harmless, but for example when they do it abroad it causes serious problems because people don't like to be racially stereotyped. A good example is that I'm of Jewish ethnicity and I can't tell you how many times I've been told how clever and good at making money my people are by Japanese. This upsets me for two reasons, 1) As I've barely made a salary for 2 years, I'm angry at "my people" for not letting me in on this secret. and 2) The flip side of this remark would be that Jews are tight with money and cunning - - don't trust them, or that all Jews (or blacks, foreigners, etc.) are the same and you can make a blanket statement. - - In the U.S. I might be with an Irish friend, and I might tell an off color Irish joke, and he might respond with an off color Jewish remark, but its funny because we know a lot of different Irish and Jews and are just trying to annoy each other. In Japan, that Jew or (possibly drunk) Irishman might represent their entire race. - - But this leads to insult humor in general in Manzai humor. I can't tell you how many times well meaning Japanese salarymen have put their hand on my stomach and said "debu". The humor of shame and stereotyping is funny ONLY in limited escapable doses. Howard Stern and Andrew Dice Clay (in the U.S.) are funny because you had the CHOICE whether or not to hear them, but in Japan, insult/steretyping type images/humor are inescable.
Anyway, Bobb Olugun goes around acting stupid. He actually speaks very good Japanese, but acts like a monkey. The image of Nigerians in Japan are "phone cards and Scams" and no Bobby Olugun does Amos and Andy.
- - I can tell you one final story to make my point about underlying racism in Japanese society. I owned a business and we had a dispute with the local police, so they went to our rental agency and said that my business was a trouble spot because we had a lot of "Chinese" customers. Besides being untrue, the nuance was that Chinese = foreign criminal activity. Though it is true that there are problems with a certain amount of Nigerian, Iranian and Chinese who do commit crime, there are also many educated people... but when you can replace a word like "Jewish" or "Nigerian" or "American" to become an adjective the result is - - 1) Easy Comedy. 2) Racial Discrimination.
As a final point, my friend who worked for immigration told me that in the office many employee quite openly discussed their opinion of "foreigners", though since I was a white American it was not such a problem. Americans afterall NEVER commit crimes. That's why American cities are so safe !
Agreed... the U.S. goes overboard with PC humor... but I think you are forgetting the history of WHY we go overboard. Conclusion... Bobby Ologun is funny, but what image is he protecting, and if you were black or Nigerian and this was one of the only representatives of your race, would you appreciate young children suddenly making monkey faces or muscles at you all the time and assuming that even if you have a Master's Degree and are a highly educated business man that you're either a sportsman, comedian or monkey?
Conclusion... if you're Japanese, Australian or White American/European the stereotypes are fun and funny because you have a good image already. But if you're southeast asian, Arabic or non-white, the humor is at your expense. (And no, I'm not saying TV shows are blatantly racist and all ethnic humor should be banned.)
Hi エディー. I *think* I'm starting to understand what you find offensive about Bobby, at least in that show. It took me a while, because I personally didn't see Bobby as a black or a Nigerian talent. I just laughed at this one foreign comedian; the fact that he happened to be black didn't enter my mind at all until you mentioned it. I mean, I sure knew he was black, but I just didn't connect that fact with his jokes or humour. If he were white, I would have laughed at him just as much. You know what I mean?
I do find people's unfounded stereotyping quite disgusting, just like you do. Japanese newspapers are full of such stories every day - "Young Chinese guys did this" and "Two Brazilians did that," as if their nationalities were related to what they've done. My question is, is Bobby really causing you to stereotype blacks? That's the question I can't answer.
Oh, btw, I don't necessarily agree with you on your last sentence. I still feel that some, if not most, Americans hold a pretty negative stereotype of the Japanese. Thick glasses, cameras hanging from their necks, slant-eyed, etc., etc.
I do find people's unfounded stereotyping quite disgusting, just like you do. Japanese newspapers are full of such stories every day - "Young Chinese guys did this" and "Two Brazilians did that," as if their nationalities were related to what they've done. My question is, is Bobby really causing you to stereotype blacks? That's the question I can't answer.
Oh, btw, I don't necessarily agree with you on your last sentence. I still feel that some, if not most, Americans hold a pretty negative stereotype of the Japanese. Thick glasses, cameras hanging from their necks, slant-eyed, etc., etc.
some, if not most, Americans hold a pretty negative stereotype of the Japanese.>>
Hi ! : だいはど. When I first came to Japan that was the first thing I realized... Everything I knew about Japan was wrong. In fact I think there are many foreigners (and possibly even Japanese) who LIVE in Japan and understand Japan even less. But then Japan is a land of paradox's... this is why Bobby Ologun is so interesting. A few years ago a Japanese manufacturer (described in general as "Japan" as opposed to a "Japanese Company) provoked outrage from many afro-Americans issuing a SAMBO doll. all good and harmless fun ???
There is a word (I forget it) that describes the Asian philosophy of a type of moral neutrality and acceptance of two (presumably) polar opposite points of view. From this persspective, a symbol is just a symbol and can be accepted without full contemplation of what it represents. (i.e. what it means to YOU is what it means to YOU, and we should not judge each other's perceptions of it.) From this perspective, I guess you could argue that NOTHING is offensive. So to that point, it is true... In the Japanese eye Bobby Ologun is harmless fun... and it is true, when an American stereotypes a Japanese person it is often more vitrolic. Ex. All foreigners hate Nato and have big penises. *Only one of them is true in my case... I won't say which ! (Japanese mentality.) vs. Deceitful Yellow monkey - - avoid at all costs ! (American mentality.) In my mind, both represent different levels of ignorance, though the American/Western type is DEFINITELY more dangerous. Still both are potentially dangerous as the more harmless type can lead to the other... and I think the current governor of Tokyo is a good example of how a more vitrolic form of racism can always be lurking right below the surface... hence, he's considered a "populist" by MANY people, and not a racist.
Whatever... Japan definitely has a complex love hate relationship with the outside world... America is the same. I think it is a big problem for both countries, but for different reasons.
Hi ! : だいはど. When I first came to Japan that was the first thing I realized... Everything I knew about Japan was wrong. In fact I think there are many foreigners (and possibly even Japanese) who LIVE in Japan and understand Japan even less. But then Japan is a land of paradox's... this is why Bobby Ologun is so interesting. A few years ago a Japanese manufacturer (described in general as "Japan" as opposed to a "Japanese Company) provoked outrage from many afro-Americans issuing a SAMBO doll. all good and harmless fun ???
There is a word (I forget it) that describes the Asian philosophy of a type of moral neutrality and acceptance of two (presumably) polar opposite points of view. From this persspective, a symbol is just a symbol and can be accepted without full contemplation of what it represents. (i.e. what it means to YOU is what it means to YOU, and we should not judge each other's perceptions of it.) From this perspective, I guess you could argue that NOTHING is offensive. So to that point, it is true... In the Japanese eye Bobby Ologun is harmless fun... and it is true, when an American stereotypes a Japanese person it is often more vitrolic. Ex. All foreigners hate Nato and have big penises. *Only one of them is true in my case... I won't say which ! (Japanese mentality.) vs. Deceitful Yellow monkey - - avoid at all costs ! (American mentality.) In my mind, both represent different levels of ignorance, though the American/Western type is DEFINITELY more dangerous. Still both are potentially dangerous as the more harmless type can lead to the other... and I think the current governor of Tokyo is a good example of how a more vitrolic form of racism can always be lurking right below the surface... hence, he's considered a "populist" by MANY people, and not a racist.
Whatever... Japan definitely has a complex love hate relationship with the outside world... America is the same. I think it is a big problem for both countries, but for different reasons.
Hi エディー!
I vaguely recall the Sambo doll fiasco. The funny thing is, I never looked at it that way when I saw them hanging from my female friends' arms. I guess I was naive as an elementary school boy. Only later did I learn about racism. I wonder if ignorance was bliss in that case?
Please don't get me started about Ishihara (the current Tokyo governor). He is nothing but a racist prick. I've always wondered how the people in Tokyo could have been so ignorant as to choose someone like him as governor. You could publish a book if you picked all the discriminatory remarks Ishihara has made in the past. I'm glad we agree on this. :)
>> There is a word (I forget it) that describes the Asian
>> philosophy of ...
Is it Ying and Yang?
I learned a lot from the discussion with you. I've been reminded that just because nothing is wrong in my eyes doesn't mean nothing is wrong, that you have to look at things from a different angle. I thought I'd always done that, but I obviously failed this time.
I vaguely recall the Sambo doll fiasco. The funny thing is, I never looked at it that way when I saw them hanging from my female friends' arms. I guess I was naive as an elementary school boy. Only later did I learn about racism. I wonder if ignorance was bliss in that case?
Please don't get me started about Ishihara (the current Tokyo governor). He is nothing but a racist prick. I've always wondered how the people in Tokyo could have been so ignorant as to choose someone like him as governor. You could publish a book if you picked all the discriminatory remarks Ishihara has made in the past. I'm glad we agree on this. :)
>> There is a word (I forget it) that describes the Asian
>> philosophy of ...
Is it Ying and Yang?
I learned a lot from the discussion with you. I've been reminded that just because nothing is wrong in my eyes doesn't mean nothing is wrong, that you have to look at things from a different angle. I thought I'd always done that, but I obviously failed this time.
Please don't get me started about Ishihara (the current Tokyo governor). He is nothing but a racist prick.＞＞
Hi ! But remember, Ishihara is a "populist" - - that means he gets his following by tapping into the unspoken feelings of the public and representing them.... He is only a mirror of the people who elected him. The problem is not with 1 Ishihara... but rather the PUBLIC who put him in office. He says things that make people feel united, safe and good. All the solutions are simple with him... It is the oldest strategy in the world... unite the population by UNITING them AGAINST a common cause. George Bush is great at this too. Many people LOVE him because he comes across as a man of the people. He's the guy in the pick up truck that you drink beer with at the bar. A good old boy. One of "US", not one of "THEM" and one who is set to defend OUR way of life against the foreigners and liberals. Ishihara is the same... In America we have John Q. Smith (nickname average American) in Japan I think Ishihara is a type of John Q. Oyaji... So the message is not that Ishihara is a bad man - - he isn't. He's a mirror... He just says in public what many people say in private, then people feel relieved to hear it. - - And this is where the media and educational system come in. What are they teaching the public that such racist and nationlistic beliefs are so commonly held??? But America is no better (especially considering that hate crimes and hate crime groups seem to be a bigger problem in the U.S. than in Japan.)
Yin and Yang isn't the word...
re: yin yang. Is it chukanoshito ???
Hi ! But remember, Ishihara is a "populist" - - that means he gets his following by tapping into the unspoken feelings of the public and representing them.... He is only a mirror of the people who elected him. The problem is not with 1 Ishihara... but rather the PUBLIC who put him in office. He says things that make people feel united, safe and good. All the solutions are simple with him... It is the oldest strategy in the world... unite the population by UNITING them AGAINST a common cause. George Bush is great at this too. Many people LOVE him because he comes across as a man of the people. He's the guy in the pick up truck that you drink beer with at the bar. A good old boy. One of "US", not one of "THEM" and one who is set to defend OUR way of life against the foreigners and liberals. Ishihara is the same... In America we have John Q. Smith (nickname average American) in Japan I think Ishihara is a type of John Q. Oyaji... So the message is not that Ishihara is a bad man - - he isn't. He's a mirror... He just says in public what many people say in private, then people feel relieved to hear it. - - And this is where the media and educational system come in. What are they teaching the public that such racist and nationlistic beliefs are so commonly held??? But America is no better (especially considering that hate crimes and hate crime groups seem to be a bigger problem in the U.S. than in Japan.)
Yin and Yang isn't the word...
re: yin yang. Is it chukanoshito ???
I'm sorta with you on this. Although Bobby can stay, I DO think the view of Africans/African Americans in Japan is not a good one. We need more positive viewpoints on the issue. I HAVE seen a few shows though that were really interesting. There was an African woman who married a Japanese guy and they did a segment on her and her family. It definitely did not portray Africans negatively in this case. However, as for TALENT...
Hi エディー.
I know what you mean when you say Ishinara just represents the hidden feelings of the mass public in Tokyo. That's a very scary thought - but it's probably true. I just hope they elected him out of sheer ignorance rather than because they actually supported him. Not that the outcome would have been different, but I just feel better if it's the former!
In my mind, that doesn't change the fact that Ishihara is still a bad man. He is not playing racist in order to get votes; he has always been a racist as far as I know. Well, this is probably for another thread.
Yin and Yan is "darkness" and "brightness" - indicating that there are two sides to everything. That's how I take it, at least. :)
I know what you mean when you say Ishinara just represents the hidden feelings of the mass public in Tokyo. That's a very scary thought - but it's probably true. I just hope they elected him out of sheer ignorance rather than because they actually supported him. Not that the outcome would have been different, but I just feel better if it's the former!
In my mind, that doesn't change the fact that Ishihara is still a bad man. He is not playing racist in order to get votes; he has always been a racist as far as I know. Well, this is probably for another thread.
Yin and Yan is "darkness" and "brightness" - indicating that there are two sides to everything. That's how I take it, at least. :)
i didn't read all of the comments but whoa nelly to エディーさん's post regarding the HEYx3 clip.
>He actually speaks very good Japanese, but acts like a monkey.
エディーさん、in what ways does he act like a monkey? to my knowledge, monkeys do not speak.
could Bobby Ologon's clip be offensive becuase it touched your inner racism?
a good example is pornography.
to a child's eyes, it looks like adults frolicking outside of the bathtub during bath time because to their knowledge that's one of the few times people are naked and 'playing'
but to an adult, they know right away it is x-rated.
wow. your statement kinda shocked me.
>He actually speaks very good Japanese, but acts like a monkey.
エディーさん、in what ways does he act like a monkey? to my knowledge, monkeys do not speak.
could Bobby Ologon's clip be offensive becuase it touched your inner racism?
a good example is pornography.
to a child's eyes, it looks like adults frolicking outside of the bathtub during bath time because to their knowledge that's one of the few times people are naked and 'playing'
but to an adult, they know right away it is x-rated.
wow. your statement kinda shocked me.
to my knowledge, monkeys do not speak. >> O.K. I have to agree with you on this point. They do curl their lips and eat bananas though.
もえ☺san,
Let me ask you this... of Gaijin talent in Japan, what are the iamges of Black people in general ? The fact is that most of the white talent who are on TV are college educated (sometimes college teachers), commentators, at times English teachers - - and most very assimilated to Japanese society... very good role models, even if their jokes are sometimes a bit silly. Now try this, make a list of Gaijin talent in Japan by level of fame and see if you can notice any patterns. My problem is not with Bobby Olugun -- but moreso with the media... Race, Stereotyping and genertyping do not help people at all.
I can give you an example (not sure if I already wrote about it) - - I owned a shop, and we had a strange dispute with the police. So they went to my real estate agency and complained. They said that my shop had "many Chinese customers," - - This was clearly meant to imply that my shop has "criminal activity", and in fact during my stay in Japan, I have repeatedly heard similar comments about Chinese people and foreigners... though being reminded that since I was white and American I wasn't "that type of foreigner". So there are two questions, 1. How do people develop these ideas ? 2. If it doesn't come from the media, does TV (which I believe is where people get much of their education) do anything to promote racist ideas.
The fact is that I think AMerican style PC thinking goes overboard sometimes... I don't think there should be a law of who they can or can't have on TV and the image the person has to have, but I think the media has a responsibility to help, not hurt people - - and it would be nice if for once they put a dumb white guy on TV... considering the pay, I'd be first in line for the job !
もえ☺san,
Let me ask you this... of Gaijin talent in Japan, what are the iamges of Black people in general ? The fact is that most of the white talent who are on TV are college educated (sometimes college teachers), commentators, at times English teachers - - and most very assimilated to Japanese society... very good role models, even if their jokes are sometimes a bit silly. Now try this, make a list of Gaijin talent in Japan by level of fame and see if you can notice any patterns. My problem is not with Bobby Olugun -- but moreso with the media... Race, Stereotyping and genertyping do not help people at all.
I can give you an example (not sure if I already wrote about it) - - I owned a shop, and we had a strange dispute with the police. So they went to my real estate agency and complained. They said that my shop had "many Chinese customers," - - This was clearly meant to imply that my shop has "criminal activity", and in fact during my stay in Japan, I have repeatedly heard similar comments about Chinese people and foreigners... though being reminded that since I was white and American I wasn't "that type of foreigner". So there are two questions, 1. How do people develop these ideas ? 2. If it doesn't come from the media, does TV (which I believe is where people get much of their education) do anything to promote racist ideas.
The fact is that I think AMerican style PC thinking goes overboard sometimes... I don't think there should be a law of who they can or can't have on TV and the image the person has to have, but I think the media has a responsibility to help, not hurt people - - and it would be nice if for once they put a dumb white guy on TV... considering the pay, I'd be first in line for the job !
Hi guys.
What I still wonder is whether or not the typical Japanese people get a negative impression of the black people when they watch Bobby Ologun make a fool of himself. Will they associate his stupid language and action with his race, or will they just look at him as a funny comedian?
I myself tend to look at it the latter way. Like I said in a previous post, I didn't realize the Hey, Hey, Hey show could be taken racially until エディー pointed it out. If a white someone did the same thing, I'm pretty sure I'd have the same reaction.
As for the media being responsible for racial discrimination in Japan, I agree with エディー. So much news coverage is devoted to stereotyping foreigners as illegals, drop-outs and criminals. Funny they are always singled out; the vast majority of those who commit crimes are still Japanese!
What I still wonder is whether or not the typical Japanese people get a negative impression of the black people when they watch Bobby Ologun make a fool of himself. Will they associate his stupid language and action with his race, or will they just look at him as a funny comedian?
I myself tend to look at it the latter way. Like I said in a previous post, I didn't realize the Hey, Hey, Hey show could be taken racially until エディー pointed it out. If a white someone did the same thing, I'm pretty sure I'd have the same reaction.
As for the media being responsible for racial discrimination in Japan, I agree with エディー. So much news coverage is devoted to stereotyping foreigners as illegals, drop-outs and criminals. Funny they are always singled out; the vast majority of those who commit crimes are still Japanese!
エディーさん、
if a person does something to show up on the 6o'clock news, that's their own fault. and teh media's responsibility is to report it. if the person happens to be asian, than so be it. if the person happens to be black, then so be it.
when describing the subject in question, are you looking for the media to omit the racial description? if that's the case, THAT would be racism. just as there are many negative portrayls, there are good as well.
it's our job to become critical thinkers and not take everything we see on tv to heart.
frankly, the idea to point fingers at the media is another reason why racism will never go away.
individuals need to own up to their actions and take responsibility.
if the entire race is being represented by these characters on tv and how they are portrayed,
then it's these people of certain race's respononsibilities to start lessening stereotypes.
i am extremely curious to hear your ideas of what you 'ideal' media would be.
だいはど氏
i didn't think bobby ologun was making a fool of himself. and at least he was making an effort speak japanese.
(i've run into a few african american people who cat-called me in english while i was in tokyo.. but just because they represented their race negatively, it doesn't mean every single black person is like that. it's unfortunate that a lot we see on the streets and tv are like that)
his timing and ボケ was extremely entertaining.
お笑い is just that, お笑い。the banter is supposed to be funny.
it's entertainment. it's the individuals who are funny and not the entire race.
i mean just because there are many funny kansai-jin, it doesn't mean everyone from the kansai area is funny. (i've met a few who weren't)
IMO, looking at an お笑い番組 and turning it into a racial issue is an "american" thing to do.
if a person does something to show up on the 6o'clock news, that's their own fault. and teh media's responsibility is to report it. if the person happens to be asian, than so be it. if the person happens to be black, then so be it.
when describing the subject in question, are you looking for the media to omit the racial description? if that's the case, THAT would be racism. just as there are many negative portrayls, there are good as well.
it's our job to become critical thinkers and not take everything we see on tv to heart.
frankly, the idea to point fingers at the media is another reason why racism will never go away.
individuals need to own up to their actions and take responsibility.
if the entire race is being represented by these characters on tv and how they are portrayed,
then it's these people of certain race's respononsibilities to start lessening stereotypes.
i am extremely curious to hear your ideas of what you 'ideal' media would be.
だいはど氏
i didn't think bobby ologun was making a fool of himself. and at least he was making an effort speak japanese.
(i've run into a few african american people who cat-called me in english while i was in tokyo.. but just because they represented their race negatively, it doesn't mean every single black person is like that. it's unfortunate that a lot we see on the streets and tv are like that)
his timing and ボケ was extremely entertaining.
お笑い is just that, お笑い。the banter is supposed to be funny.
it's entertainment. it's the individuals who are funny and not the entire race.
i mean just because there are many funny kansai-jin, it doesn't mean everyone from the kansai area is funny. (i've met a few who weren't)
IMO, looking at an お笑い番組 and turning it into a racial issue is an "american" thing to do.
I think whether or not Bobby is funny is a matter of personal taste, but I think it is important for people to realise that there ARE foreigners among us who actually are offended by Bobby's antics. To put things into perspective, for those of you who think Bobby is funny, let me ask you this.
If you saw a Japanese person on American tv, deliberately speaking crappy English with a voice that sounds like he has mild retardation, would you think he was funny, or doing a disservice to the image of Japanese people overseas?
I haven't done any surveys so I can't tell you whether Bobby is having a negative influence on society, but to me it seems as though Bobby is deliberately playing on, and therefore promoting the stereotype that gaijins can't speak proper Japanese and fail to understand the culture.
I don't blame him personally for this, since I presume he is just taking full advantage of his popularity from (the heavily scripted) karakuri tv where he was portrayed as a moron, and feels he needs to maintain this character on other tv shows. Bobby is a one gag act, and the media will probably give up on him sooner or later (I get the feeling his time is almost up, especially after that hissy fit he had in his office).
In 5 years I bet everyone will be saying, Bobby who?
If you saw a Japanese person on American tv, deliberately speaking crappy English with a voice that sounds like he has mild retardation, would you think he was funny, or doing a disservice to the image of Japanese people overseas?
I haven't done any surveys so I can't tell you whether Bobby is having a negative influence on society, but to me it seems as though Bobby is deliberately playing on, and therefore promoting the stereotype that gaijins can't speak proper Japanese and fail to understand the culture.
I don't blame him personally for this, since I presume he is just taking full advantage of his popularity from (the heavily scripted) karakuri tv where he was portrayed as a moron, and feels he needs to maintain this character on other tv shows. Bobby is a one gag act, and the media will probably give up on him sooner or later (I get the feeling his time is almost up, especially after that hissy fit he had in his office).
In 5 years I bet everyone will be saying, Bobby who?
もえ、
I didn't mean to put him down when I said Bobby was making a fool of himself. He knows exactly what he's doing. He just behaves like that to entertain the audience. :)
I have a mixed feeling about how the media portrays criminal suspects, though. In fact, we have a similar issue here in the U.S. When the media reports specific details of the suspect, it will help the viewers form certain stereotypes about those reported. Suppose the evening news keeps telling you a group of Chinese people robbed this bank, killed three people, etc., etc., you won't need much more pushing to start considering Chinese as the major source of problems. The fact of the matter is that more than 99 percent of the crimes are still committed by the Japanese.
I have a lot to say about the way the media reports crimes and the suspects, both in Japan and in the U.S., but that's for another thread...
I didn't mean to put him down when I said Bobby was making a fool of himself. He knows exactly what he's doing. He just behaves like that to entertain the audience. :)
I have a mixed feeling about how the media portrays criminal suspects, though. In fact, we have a similar issue here in the U.S. When the media reports specific details of the suspect, it will help the viewers form certain stereotypes about those reported. Suppose the evening news keeps telling you a group of Chinese people robbed this bank, killed three people, etc., etc., you won't need much more pushing to start considering Chinese as the major source of problems. The fact of the matter is that more than 99 percent of the crimes are still committed by the Japanese.
I have a lot to say about the way the media reports crimes and the suspects, both in Japan and in the U.S., but that's for another thread...
だいはど氏、oh I whole heartedly agree.
like in nyc, where there's a crap load of crime everyday, the descriptions are always ,
"the suspect, a black male age 10-85 between 4"10 and 6"3 weighing 85lbs-500lbs wearing jeans and a black jacket" (obviously i'm jsut kidding but does anyone here watch dave chapelle?)
seriously though, what else is the media supposed to report? there just happens to be certain racial groups that tend to cause news worthy news more than the rest. ie: chinese because of the large population. there are tons of good but also tons of bad. hispanic folks who are misrepresented by individuals who do harm, and the same goes for african americans.
is the media supposed to cut out those segements from the evening news?
>The fact of the matter is that more than 99 percent of the crimes are still committed by the Japanese.
yes, and 1% are still "foreigners" every single race has good people, and bad people.
but individuals who go to another country and misrepresent by committing crimes, then of course it becomes even more news worthy. it's sad the few "bad apple's" actions reflect upon the entire race, but that's the reality. i mean how can you not think negatively? i think it's human nature.
i'm just saying, instead of pointing the blame to the media, people need to own up to their actions.
like in nyc, where there's a crap load of crime everyday, the descriptions are always ,
"the suspect, a black male age 10-85 between 4"10 and 6"3 weighing 85lbs-500lbs wearing jeans and a black jacket" (obviously i'm jsut kidding but does anyone here watch dave chapelle?)
seriously though, what else is the media supposed to report? there just happens to be certain racial groups that tend to cause news worthy news more than the rest. ie: chinese because of the large population. there are tons of good but also tons of bad. hispanic folks who are misrepresented by individuals who do harm, and the same goes for african americans.
is the media supposed to cut out those segements from the evening news?
>The fact of the matter is that more than 99 percent of the crimes are still committed by the Japanese.
yes, and 1% are still "foreigners" every single race has good people, and bad people.
but individuals who go to another country and misrepresent by committing crimes, then of course it becomes even more news worthy. it's sad the few "bad apple's" actions reflect upon the entire race, but that's the reality. i mean how can you not think negatively? i think it's human nature.
i'm just saying, instead of pointing the blame to the media, people need to own up to their actions.
DanceSt☆r、i just looked in that community and wow.
see, perfect example of misreprentation.
just because there are some japanese ppl like that, doesn't mean everyone's like that right? and it's not OK but somewhat overlooked because this is a japanese SNS.
i wonder if there are rules against racism in mixi. that community is awful
see, perfect example of misreprentation.
just because there are some japanese ppl like that, doesn't mean everyone's like that right? and it's not OK but somewhat overlooked because this is a japanese SNS.
i wonder if there are rules against racism in mixi. that community is awful
>> every single race has good people, and bad people.
You're absolutely right about that. There's always bad apples in any group. That said, what happens when the media emphasizes the nationalities of non-Japanese crime suspects? The viewers start to get the impression that all crimes are committed by foreigners. The bad apples in the Japanese population are somehow forgotten. All troubles are brought in by those stupid gaijins. Then the right-wing congressmen loudly call for new regulations that tighten up immigration, which will not help discrimination go away.
As far as the media reports are concerned, I do not need any such details. Do you really want to know if the guy who just held up and robbed a local Lawson is Japanese, Chinese or Korean? I for one couldn't care less - all I want is for the bastard to be caught. :)
You're absolutely right about that. There's always bad apples in any group. That said, what happens when the media emphasizes the nationalities of non-Japanese crime suspects? The viewers start to get the impression that all crimes are committed by foreigners. The bad apples in the Japanese population are somehow forgotten. All troubles are brought in by those stupid gaijins. Then the right-wing congressmen loudly call for new regulations that tighten up immigration, which will not help discrimination go away.
As far as the media reports are concerned, I do not need any such details. Do you really want to know if the guy who just held up and robbed a local Lawson is Japanese, Chinese or Korean? I for one couldn't care less - all I want is for the bastard to be caught. :)
DanceSt☆r & もえ
I agree with many of your comments, but how is the グッバイ！ボビー・オロゴン community racist? From what I can tell they don't hate him because he is black, they hate him because they don't like his style of "comedy", if you can call it such. Race is not an issue, and they explicity state that on their site
***ちなみにここは人種差別的なコミュでなく、
またそれを助長するコミュでもありません。
ユーモアの無い方の入会はお控えください。
Don't you realise that while you are appealing to people here to be less judgemental towards Bobby, you are being judgemental yourselves.
Let's lighten up people, and get on with our lives.
I agree with many of your comments, but how is the グッバイ！ボビー・オロゴン community racist? From what I can tell they don't hate him because he is black, they hate him because they don't like his style of "comedy", if you can call it such. Race is not an issue, and they explicity state that on their site
***ちなみにここは人種差別的なコミュでなく、
またそれを助長するコミュでもありません。
ユーモアの無い方の入会はお控えください。
Don't you realise that while you are appealing to people here to be less judgemental towards Bobby, you are being judgemental yourselves.
Let's lighten up people, and get on with our lives.
DanceSt☆r,
Well, I don't know about the "random" bit. ^o- The hate seems quite focused to me, but yes, in essence you are correct.
BTW, although I believe they have a right to express their dislike of Bobby, or anyone else for that matter, I do believe it should be done in a more civil manner.
Well, I don't know about the "random" bit. ^o- The hate seems quite focused to me, but yes, in essence you are correct.
BTW, although I believe they have a right to express their dislike of Bobby, or anyone else for that matter, I do believe it should be done in a more civil manner.
You are right... I shouldn't condemn Bobby... and no, I don't think people should use words like "Uncle Tom" - - I guess this would lead to a whole debate about the responsibillity of the media in "public education". The truth is, that if people put pressure on the media to better represent their own groups, it might serve a purpose... but it might also be argued that it is an issue of freedom and choice... anyone has a right to make a fool of themselves or be made a fool out of. I'm sure the typical NOVA teacher is more exploited than the average Gaijin talent, so I would agree with you to some extent.
The question that disturbs me is that in Japan while OUTRIGHT DISCIMINATION is probably RARER than in the U.S. I think STEREOTYPING is acceptable. A lot of it is harmless... I was stopped 4 times by police on the way home from work in 1 year. I asked my friends if Japanese get this treatment to. They said, "Oh, its because you look different !" in a very innocent voice. - - Back where I live RACIAL PROFILING by police on high ways are a MAJOR issue... but it makes less sense in America, since you can't assume something is FUNNY because a person doen't "look American" (unless you're a racist.) - - But as for Japan, is it fare for police to stop a person just because they are an apparent foreigner ??? (I live in a relatively high crime area. This never happened when I lived in Meguro, etc.)
The logical arguement you might make is that what does this have to do with Bobby Ologun... and that depends how "idealistic" you want to be. One arguement is that the Japanese public needs to be educated that while yes, it is true, certain countries do export certain types of crimes to Japan, even those people are not "TYPICAL" Nigerians, Arabs, Chinese, etc. - - So the issue comes doesn to whether the media has responsibility, and I guess that's an arguement not worth getting into.
In the end though... there are a number of issues that have been raised here...
1. Yes, I don't think one member of a race should force other members of his race to behave in a certain manner out of some "code of image." Agreed. That is a form of racism.
2. On the other hand, I do think people should be concerned with images in the media and how it effects common beliefs. But again, this is very debatbale.
3. Japan is interesting because "stereotyping" does not imply "racial discrimination" as it does in the U.S. however, I do think that stereotyping can lead to racism. Ex. "All Jews are rich, smart and wealthy," (MANY Japanese friends have told me this.) Sounds good... but in times of racism and nationalism this can easily turn into "All Jews are sneaky, good with money and plotting to take us over."
I think this leads to one last question. Take for example the use of "debu" in Japanese society. In America, if you call someone a fatso and touch their stomach in a condescending way...you might get your ass kicked as personal criticism is considered rude. But in Japan, it is not considered rude, just an "observation". I had a situation where a salaryman touched my American stomach one time too many and I told him that if he did it one more time, I *would* hit him. My Japanese friends, however told me that he was just being "friendly" and I shouldn't be so nervous. - - I think this demonstrates how in Japan words, seemingly have no meaning so you're not supposed to get offended... but is this necessarily a good thing ???
I would agree with you that his twisting of words can be funny and even I purposely mess up words to joke with friends (fortunately its far easier for me, because my Japanese isn't anywhere near as good as his), however... I still think the media is awful when it comes to the topic of public resonsibility in many areas.
The question that disturbs me is that in Japan while OUTRIGHT DISCIMINATION is probably RARER than in the U.S. I think STEREOTYPING is acceptable. A lot of it is harmless... I was stopped 4 times by police on the way home from work in 1 year. I asked my friends if Japanese get this treatment to. They said, "Oh, its because you look different !" in a very innocent voice. - - Back where I live RACIAL PROFILING by police on high ways are a MAJOR issue... but it makes less sense in America, since you can't assume something is FUNNY because a person doen't "look American" (unless you're a racist.) - - But as for Japan, is it fare for police to stop a person just because they are an apparent foreigner ??? (I live in a relatively high crime area. This never happened when I lived in Meguro, etc.)
The logical arguement you might make is that what does this have to do with Bobby Ologun... and that depends how "idealistic" you want to be. One arguement is that the Japanese public needs to be educated that while yes, it is true, certain countries do export certain types of crimes to Japan, even those people are not "TYPICAL" Nigerians, Arabs, Chinese, etc. - - So the issue comes doesn to whether the media has responsibility, and I guess that's an arguement not worth getting into.
In the end though... there are a number of issues that have been raised here...
1. Yes, I don't think one member of a race should force other members of his race to behave in a certain manner out of some "code of image." Agreed. That is a form of racism.
2. On the other hand, I do think people should be concerned with images in the media and how it effects common beliefs. But again, this is very debatbale.
3. Japan is interesting because "stereotyping" does not imply "racial discrimination" as it does in the U.S. however, I do think that stereotyping can lead to racism. Ex. "All Jews are rich, smart and wealthy," (MANY Japanese friends have told me this.) Sounds good... but in times of racism and nationalism this can easily turn into "All Jews are sneaky, good with money and plotting to take us over."
I think this leads to one last question. Take for example the use of "debu" in Japanese society. In America, if you call someone a fatso and touch their stomach in a condescending way...you might get your ass kicked as personal criticism is considered rude. But in Japan, it is not considered rude, just an "observation". I had a situation where a salaryman touched my American stomach one time too many and I told him that if he did it one more time, I *would* hit him. My Japanese friends, however told me that he was just being "friendly" and I shouldn't be so nervous. - - I think this demonstrates how in Japan words, seemingly have no meaning so you're not supposed to get offended... but is this necessarily a good thing ???
I would agree with you that his twisting of words can be funny and even I purposely mess up words to joke with friends (fortunately its far easier for me, because my Japanese isn't anywhere near as good as his), however... I still think the media is awful when it comes to the topic of public resonsibility in many areas.
もえ、
We just need to figure out where to draw the line between the protection of privacy and crime prevention. Reporting the personal details of a crime suspect may help the ordinary citizens protect themselves better or give the police more useful leads. OTOH, it may contribute to the prejudice and discrimination against a particular gender/race/whatever. If you ask me, concerns over the latter outweigh the former.
We just need to figure out where to draw the line between the protection of privacy and crime prevention. Reporting the personal details of a crime suspect may help the ordinary citizens protect themselves better or give the police more useful leads. OTOH, it may contribute to the prejudice and discrimination against a particular gender/race/whatever. If you ask me, concerns over the latter outweigh the former.
もえ、
Obviously our definitions of racism are different. Personally, given the context I don't think 早くアフリカに帰ってくれよぉ is a racist remark. The author is not telling him to go back to Africa because of his colour or nationality, but because of his antics on television. Race has nothing to do with it. I could just as easily say "Piss off Hard Gay. Go back to Kyoto or wherever you are from". Am I being racist towards Japanese? No, of course not. I'm making a statement that I don't want to see Hard Gay on television anymore.
Of course, if you wish to accept it as a racist remark, you are welcome to do so. As I stated earlier, although I do not think the community is racist, the way in which it is presented can lead to misinterpretation by, in their words "ユーモアの無い方" (or in my opinion, people with a different sense of humour). In an ideal world, in order to avoid such misinterpretations they should probably tone down their rhetoric a little bit. However, since this isn't an ideal world, we just need to grow thicker skin.
Obviously our definitions of racism are different. Personally, given the context I don't think 早くアフリカに帰ってくれよぉ is a racist remark. The author is not telling him to go back to Africa because of his colour or nationality, but because of his antics on television. Race has nothing to do with it. I could just as easily say "Piss off Hard Gay. Go back to Kyoto or wherever you are from". Am I being racist towards Japanese? No, of course not. I'm making a statement that I don't want to see Hard Gay on television anymore.
Of course, if you wish to accept it as a racist remark, you are welcome to do so. As I stated earlier, although I do not think the community is racist, the way in which it is presented can lead to misinterpretation by, in their words "ユーモアの無い方" (or in my opinion, people with a different sense of humour). In an ideal world, in order to avoid such misinterpretations they should probably tone down their rhetoric a little bit. However, since this isn't an ideal world, we just need to grow thicker skin.
hairybear,
"Piss off Hard Gay. Go back to Kyoto or wherever you are from".
is something that wouldn't be said towards other japanese.
i normally hear "どっか行けよ" "早く消えて" and have even heard "○ね"
to specifically state "go back to Africa" instead of "早く消えて" to me, is racist.
sure the world may need to grow "thicker skin" but people need to learn how to choose their words. isn't that common courtesy towards other human beings?
(something tells me this issue should be its own discussion... we're digressing way too much lol)
"Piss off Hard Gay. Go back to Kyoto or wherever you are from".
is something that wouldn't be said towards other japanese.
i normally hear "どっか行けよ" "早く消えて" and have even heard "○ね"
to specifically state "go back to Africa" instead of "早く消えて" to me, is racist.
sure the world may need to grow "thicker skin" but people need to learn how to choose their words. isn't that common courtesy towards other human beings?
(something tells me this issue should be its own discussion... we're digressing way too much lol)
もえ、
I see your point. I guess I am merely reading the words at face-value, whereas you are also considering the (presumably Japanese) cultural background of the person the comments were written by. My understanding of the finer points of Japanese usage and their cultural implications is admittedly not as extensive as that of native speakers.
> but people need to learn how to choose their words.
I agree totally. That is what I was trying to say, ever so inarticulately, in an earlier post.
I see your point. I guess I am merely reading the words at face-value, whereas you are also considering the (presumably Japanese) cultural background of the person the comments were written by. My understanding of the finer points of Japanese usage and their cultural implications is admittedly not as extensive as that of native speakers.
> but people need to learn how to choose their words.
I agree totally. That is what I was trying to say, ever so inarticulately, in an earlier post.
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