外国人です♪Foreigner♪コミュの本音と建て前 (Honne to tatemae)

ah! I just learned this in my Japanese Studies class a few weeks ago. But we did not discuss the honne and tatemae in the context of making japanese friends for the first time in Japan. But it makes sense now b/c right now many of the friends that I have made are kind of course (which is good) but always ask me simple and kind of strange questions over and over again like "You're eating rice. You like rice?" "Can you eat japanese food?" and always asking me what I did today. Those questions are so strange to me b/c me living in Japan(for a year) should kind of imply that I can eat at least most Japanese food and that I don't have a problem with rice and such. But maybe that's how they feel they can make conversation with me?

But what we did discuss in my class was that sometimes some Japanese people feel like they do not need to use honne and tatemae around foreigners. For example, usaully when I go to the nearby 7 eleven if I buy food usaully they will ask me nicely if I want ohashi (chopsticks) or not and of course I say yes b/c i can use ohashi. But sometimes some of the workers don't bother to ask and just stick a fork in the bag (and usaully I don't realize it until it's too late). Of course I can use a fork it just seems strange that they assume I can't eat like they can...

There are many customs in this culture. One is where an old lady sees that you are leaving your house, she may ask you if you are going out. This is a formality. I usually say no, and I am coming back backwards. lol There are other things that are just formalities. When you enter ones house, you may say "Ojamashimasu, or shitsureshimasu" which is to say that I am going to be rude, so please excuse me or something to that effect, but it really doesn`t mean THAT, it is just a formality to announce that you are there. Often when speaking, someone may just say, "mm, mmm, mm". This does not mean that agree with you, it is a way to let you know that they are listening and hear you even if they dissagree with you. In my culture it may be misconstrewed as an agreement. It is not an agreement, but it sometimes can be. Do not be offended by the chopstick thing. I have been using chopsticks longer than most of the people I know have been alive, but they always say, "Ohashi, jozu desu ne!" as if I just learned and can finally use them. I learned in Hong Kong over 40 years ago and when I was a chef, I used them for much of my cooking. I just smile.

> 3: Krystina-san,

This smile comes with whitened teeth and broadened lip, doesn't it? :D

I guess that's what British calls "American smile." I have heard this word for the first time when a BBC narrator mentioned it when Monica Lewinsky smiled in a British airport (though it quickly faded away when she realised she was surrounded by sharky paparazzi).

I also found an article regarding American smile in a British newspaper.

Unhappy with your teeth? Snap on a 'celebrity' smile
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health_medical/article1822190.ece

> "Chloe wanted a celebrity smile. She chose
> Jessica Simpson [a US actress and star of
> the reality TV show Newlyweds] who has a typical
> American smile - toothy and broad and very white.

Honne to tatemae are most prevalant in Japan but Japan does not have a corner on it. Certainly, what you experienced in the States was similar. The thing you have to say to yourself when you must excersize this practice is, "I never did mind the little things!" It is more pleasant to go into a business where the people smile (even is it is superficial) than to go into a business where people are sourpuss. Just keep a good attitude in your heart and know that these people are usually good hearted and truly not bad people. Remember, your attitude is YOUR choice!! Keep it positive and things will become lighter and you will feel better about everything. If you are a member of hi5, check out my page and some of the stories for the heart.

This is interesting to hear how foreigners think what "Honne and Tatemae" is. :P

About the chopsticks amAilove san told was not "honne and tatemae". They even aske me if i need chopsticks or not though I am 100% Japanese. :P They are trying to give the best service they can, I would say. Some staff at store never ask of course. They are just people who never think about what their jobs are/should be.

About student (or your friends?) asking you how much you use chopsticks well is about their curiousity toward non-japanese and maybe trying to find the start point to have conversation with you.

"honne to tatemae" is like...hmm.. let's say you are in a restaurant ordered something looks very delicious in a menu picture. When you tasted it, it was not like what you expected or saw in the picture. You might think "oh no...this is terrible".. when staff of restaurant came to you, asked you how it was. You wanna say "This taste terrible and looks so different from the picture in menu list" but this sounds so rude to claim, so you just sday "It is fine"..and fake smile. <<< this is honne and tatemae.

It is very difficult to expain which one is honne and which one cannot be counted as "tatemae" for me, but maybe it is part of our habit so many of us just use "honne to tatemae" naturally in our life.
Sometimes "honne" hurt someone, and we just know it... and then "tatemae"just comes out from your mouth which is acutally not "fact" or "truth". Does it make sense?

I feel what you are talking about is not so much honne to tatemae but rather kiwotsukao or gamansuru. In my understanding of honne to tatemae, when I walk into my work place and I know that the receptionist just broke up with her boyfriend, but she has a smile on her face and greets everyone with that same smile, that is tatemae. Am I mistaken? Is what you were discribing not kiwotsukao or gamansuru? I think this is different from tatemae. Isn`t tatemae more of a way of thinking or acting in a public situation?

More to the point, in my understanding, honne is ones deep motive or intention while tatemae refers to motives or intentions that are SOCIALLY-TUNED, those that are shaped, encouraged, or suppressed by majority norms. It is thought of as a virtue to not directly express ones real feelings or intentions. I know that this can be confusing to many foriegners.

Harmony and ceremoney are very important in the Japanese culture. Japanese people do not usually like to express themselves directly or straight forwardly (aimae) for fear it may hurt anothers feelings, so they are careful about what they say and often use tatemae in this case.

I think that a good example of tatemae is when a Japanese person asks, "Won`t you dine with us?" It may not really be an invitation, but rather a subtle hint to go home. The proper answer to this would be something like, " Thank you very much, but I am not hungry." Then take your leave.

Does this sound correct to you, Mana-san?

oh....well O.o
This is becoming very difficult what "honne to tatemae" is for me now.. :P

Well, I don't know exactly what to say like I said before, but I think　茶人さん's definision would express well about "honne to tatemae" :-)

I think "tatemae" is very simillar to "gaman" or "shakou jirei". If your true opinion would hurt someone or the atomosphere, or maybe make ur sittuation worse, you may want to use "tatemae" to associate people around you.
Maybe to protect yourself in case when you are at work, and discussing something with your co-workers and boss.

You acutally have different opinion, but you also know your true opinion would make the sittuation bad, you just simply use "tatemae" which is not "lie" but not the "truth". I think there are tons of example of the sittuation which I hardly can pick up just one.

However, the last example what　茶人さんpicked up was hard to tell if it was "tatemae" or not.
That person may want to make sure if she/he needs to fix dinner for all of guests or not...or maybe she/he wants to invite you to dinner but don't know how to say. (this may include because you are not Japanese, some of us may not know if we can invite you so strongly.)

I usually use "tatemae" to people who I don't know well yet just in case not to be rude to the person or business scene (with client or my boss)
We don't usually use that much "tatemae" with our friends in my opinion.

Does this make sense to you? :P

It makes sense. I think the point of tatemae is that it is a social custom. Be polite and do not offend others. It is not kind to say no in the Japanese culture. Japanese people do not express their true feelings in public. This is part of tatemae, too, isn`t it? I do not know the expression, "shakou jirei". Is it like kiwotsukao? I think it is something like pretense.

茶人さん>>社交辞令(shakoujirei) would be translated "flattering word/ compliment) in English.
This is something when people say nice thing to someone which they acutally don't think true..

Let's say you bumped into some of your aquaintance, and he/she told you "I moved to nice apartment nearby recently. Please feel free to come visit me. I look forward to your visiting me anytime!"
Then if you have no interest with this, but don't wanna be rude, you may just say "Yes. I would love to. I will let you know when soon." but in your mind, you really don't have plan for this.
This is "shakou jirei" saying something you really don't plan to do, or don't think it is.
When your aquaintance told you this, you can't say "ah...that's lovely, but I am not interested that much", so you probably say something like what I wrote.

and yes. it is "ki wo tsukau", I think. :-)
Well...I think in Japanese society there are too many of this and those things sometimes tire me. :P

Krystina-san,

I really echo with you. Honne-tatemae thing is the stuff seen in other countries, too. I have met many foreign friends who were nice to me but never became real ones. Maybe it is more clear in japan, but I know many people in other countries who communicate artificially. I do not take it negatively, but it is the fact of life.

茶人さん, for someone who professes not to speak Japanese well, you seem to have an exceptionally perceptive feel for the Japanese culture. Perhaps it is something, that when grasped, is easier to see when you are not Japanese than if you are, in a way.

I see exactly what you mean, but I think it may be less clear to Japanese because they are totally involved in their own social system. They have perhaps never had the chance to stand outside their own society and see themselves from a different perspective. I am sure what the contributors have expressed above is perfectly accurate, but I think they may be missing something at the same time - something they take for granted, but we Westerners do not. Please let me explain.

I can understand how people say that all around the world you will find people saying things they don't really mean in order to be polite, or to prevent friction, or to give "good customer service", etc. But there is something extra in Japan that is nowhere else, extra to that social custom of putting on a happy face.

Personally, I think the key to tatemae and honne is the fact that Japanese society is based on the concept of the group rather than the individual.This is not the case anywhere else, although some Asian societies come close to it if they follow a sort of Confucian ethic.

But Westerners, even if they are deeply Christian or do-gooders still live in a culture where it is accepted that individuals will have and are entitled to an individual perspective and an individual voice, provided they are civilized about it.

Perhaps it's easiest to see tatemae playing itself out in the workplace. Japanese workers may be given a chance to express their opinion about some proposal, but in the end, they know that if the boss of their group wants things to happen in a certain way, that they MUST acquiesce to that in the end. They cannot continue opposition to something once it is decided for a group or they risk being ostracized by that group. That is shameful in Japan, and you can't just go off and easily join another group.You are expected to remain loyal.

The reason is that this would be disruptive to the good of the group. And the good of the group always outranks the good of the individual in Japan. This is when tatemae steps in, and this is not required in the West. In the West, you could say "Well, I'll do that if you want, but I think it's crazy!" You can agree and agree to disagree. You might THINK like this in Japan, but you don't say it to your boss.

Everyone is clear in Japan about who is "above" you and who is "equal or below" you. To people above you, you do not use their name. You call them by their TITLE: 課長さん、お父さん、兄ちゃん、先生、先輩、etc. (Kacho-san, o-too-san, nii-chan, sensei, sempai, etc.) But when all these people speak to you, they call you by your NAME because you are "lower". You always call your elder brother nii-chan or nii-san, but he never calls you otooto-chan - he uses your name.

Titles are used to address people "above" you, so you always remember who is above you in the group you belong to (family, school, work), but are not used to people below you.This reminds you that you belong to a group, and what place you have in that group. And this will also define how you engage in tatemae and honne in relation to yourself and the group, and in relation to your group and the outside world.

You are not so much an individual, as you are identified with your group. So an employee who speaks of the general manager, Mr Yamada, will use his title (本部長さん, hom-buchou-san) to speak to him and polite language. But that same employee will use his NAME and without a title or even a "-san" when speaking to an outsider of the group (company) who asks to speak to Mr Yamada on the phone.

山田は今出ておりますが。(Yamada wa ima dete orimasu ga.- Mr Yamada is not here at the moment.) In English, we are in general much less formal than the Japanese, but we need to say "Mr" in this situation, even if we call him by his first name when speaking to him. But the Japanese is not being polite to the general manager here, she is demonstrating that she belongs to the group and IDENTIFIES with the gen mgr as part of HER GROUP, and shows politeness to the outsider (客様 kyaku-sama or kyaku-san).

This employee will show tatemae and honne in relation to the company just as she does in relation to herself. She may even apologize for something on behalf of the gen mgr, where an Australian (like me) would say that the gen mgr is not there at the moment, make arrangement for him to call the customer back and let him apologize if he so decides for the company himself.

I might apologize for keeping the customer waiting or whatever, but not for what the client claims the company may (or may not) have done to the client. That is not my decision, but the Japanese can do it because she feels she is responsible for inconveniencing someone, whether they are at fault or not, because she IS the company.She will protect the image of the company and apologize even if she thinks the client is wrong - tatemae for the company/group/self. The Western employee cannot do the same because that would be admitting "personal" liability of the company and that is a job for someone higher in the organization. The Japanese is really apologizing for the "o-jama" not some culpable act, but the Westerner would take it as an admission of personal liability.

So, if I am correct, and it is hard to explain these things concisely, I believe that tatemae and honne are a peculiarly Japanese phenomenon and more than the putting on of a good face of Westerners. It is based on the fact that Japanese feel their membership of groups as vital to their personal identity and their social cohesion and social and personal harmony.

This is just my perspective, please feel free to criticize it. Thanks.

My visa is a cultural studies visa. I have been here in Japan for ten years and even though my language skills are pretty bad, I have a good feeling as to this culture. I study the history and have friends who are monks, tea ceremony teachers, shuuji teachers and other traditional craft students and teachers.

I agree with Christian that this culture is very group oriented and that the junior/senior relationships are of utmost importance in Japan. I also know that there are other Asian cultures that follow along similar lines. (Korea, for example) There are so many related issues on this subject that it is very hard to just focus on the issue and the meaning of honne and tatemae!!

I am compiling information for a book about the understanding of the Japanese culture and have groups on other communities, such as hi5 where we discuss these things. My son's minor in college was Asian culture and he is a wonderful resource also.

I am not one who likes boxes. I hate being asked what country I am from, not because of any feelings of that issue, but more because I tend to be a world citizen. It is very difficult not being put in the gaijin box here. I try to keep an open heart and mind and just roll with it.

Because the opinions that are socially controlled　(tatemae), and maybe because I am just 外国人 it's difficult to find a new girl friend in Japan..

In my home country it will just take three days or maximum one week for me to have a new girl friend.
But now I am far away from my home country and in the state that I have no girl.
If I were in my home country I can find a new one easily...
Why
why
why
why
why
why
why
why searching for a new love here is difficult

It's miserable that just to have a new girlfriend here taking so much time and energy [while in my home country It takes nothing]
If you don't have one here,, people will say 頑張って探してください。
Just for having a new girl-friend,,, have to work hard??
Oh,,no,, [still can't accept this reality]

while In my home country I can ask my friend to find a new girl friend for my own favor... it's something that u can't do here...

you have to find your love alone
[such as crappy reality,,,just for finding a new love,, have to do many sacrifaction]]

easy come, easy go.
here we go.

skindeepさん, I suspect your analysis of honne and tatemae may only be skin deep, if you'll forgive the pun. When you get to the heart of it, I think there is a difference between Japanese and other cultures in this regard.

Of course, in every society we sometimes hide our true feelings out of fear (e.g. of losing our job), or respect (e.g. for the feelings of an aged person), or simple politeness, not wanting to make trouble.

However, here in Australia, I could openly hold a different view about a workplace matter than my boss's view. I don't have to be confrontational about it, but I can freely express an alternative view, and demonstrate that I still hold that view, even after the boss has chosen another path. This would be very difficult to do in Japan. It would be bad form to openly be at odds with your boss, especially after he had decided on a particular course of action for the team (different from your preferred choice).

The difference between Japanese and other cultural norms in regard to this matter is that Japanese tatemae is aimed at saving the face of the group rather than the individual. I may conceal the truth to protect myself or perhaps those close to me. Japanese must exercise tatemae for the sake of the work team (or other group) they belong to, even if they don't like half those people. It would be a loss of face for all concerned if a team member disrupted the harmony of the group by standing out from the group.

As a gaikoku-jin in Japan, you cannot personally experience this aspect of Japanese culture, because you will always remain outside the Japanese system of "them and us" - "uchi" and "soto" - inside and outside. The "gai" of "gaikoku-jin" is the same Japanese kanji as "soto".

Because you remain "soto", you are not almost inextricably bound up with certain groups as Japanese people are, and so you do not have to defer to such a group as Japanese people are invariably called upon to do.

The fact that Japanese office workers so frequently work well into the evening for no reason such as being behind in work, or trying to hit a deadline, or for overtime pay, is an indication of how tied to their work group they are, and what sacrifices they'll make for that group, even though they don't want to. Japanese normally do not challenge this expectation that they work late, even though they don't like it, because that would be to challenge and stand out from the group.

That's my understanding of why it's not the same in Japan as in the West.