その2

[別紙 己号]
文書題目 [伊藤総理大臣と駐日露国公使との朝鮮問題についての対話記録]

[伊藤総理大臣と駐日露国公使との朝鮮問題についての対話記録]
Resumé of a conversation which took place on the 5th March 1896 between H. E. marquis Ito, President of the Council, and H, E, Mr. Hitrovo, Russian Minister, at the official residence of the President of the Council.
After a few customary compliments, H. E. the Russian Minister said to Marquis Ito that since they had their long conversation on the Corean question, regrettable events had presented themselves in Corea and that the Russian Government were very much surprised by them, the more so as, on the receipt of the telegrams sent by Mr. Hitrovo to his Government on the conversation he had with the Marquis, the Russian government had sent instructions to Seoul in order that the Russian Representative might abstain from giving rise to any new incident, in as much as Russia desired no fresh complication in the Far East. Unfortunately, the said events presented themselves before these instructions could reach Seoul in consequence of the interruption of the telegraph lines.
Marquis Ito replied that he too was very much surprised by the events that had just taken place; but that he was much pleased to know, by the latest news he had just received from Corea that calmness was reestablished at Seoul. The Marquis then expressed the satisfaction he experienced in that the two governments of Japan and Russia should be able to arrive at a certain understanding, thanks to the kind cooperation of Mr. Hitrovo.
The Russian Minister said that he also was very happy to know that the two Governments had been able to come to an understanding on the instruction to be given to their respective Representatives in Corea but that these measures were only provisional measures and that an understanding on the general question was very desirable between the two Governments, as he had already had occasion to speak of it to H. E. Marquis Ito in a former conversation and that he thought that Marshal Yamagata was charged with this mission. Mr. Hitrovo, being due in Russia at least a month in advance of the arrival of the marshal in Russia, desired to know the general points of the mission confided to the marshal, in order to be able to prepare the way before his arrival.
Marquis Ito said that in fact Marshal Yamagata was charged with a special mission to that effect and that he hoped to be able to arrive at an understanding between the two Governments when the marshal, upon arrival in Russia, shall have exchanged views with the minister for Foreign Affairs. Reminding Mr. Hitrovo of a conversation the Russian Minister had had with Marquis Saionzi, the president of the Council said to him that, like him, he thought that Corea was incapable of existing by herself and that she required to be aided by others; that consequently it was desirable that Japan and Russia should come to an understanding to that effect and that he would be very much obliged to the Russian Minister if he would be good enough to explain to him his views on the question.
The Russian Minister replied that, in his opinion, as he had already had occasion to say to Marquis Saionzi, Corea was incapable of being independent by herself and that it was desirable to find modus vivendi by an understanding between Russia and Japan, permitting Corea to subsist. As he had already declared to him several times, what Russia desires in regard to Corea is that she should not become a weapon against Russia in the hands of other powers.
Marquis Ito then said that if such were the true intentions of Russia, he thought that the understanding between the two countries could very well be made. As he had already had occasion to say to Mr. Hitrovo, Japan has no aggressive intention against Corea and desired neither to have an exclusive influence in that country. It would then be very possible for the two Governments to find a ground of understanding on the Corean question.
Mr. Hitrovo replied that he also thought that this understanding between the two countries was very possible. In his opinion, the Corean question can not be separated from the general question of the Far East and as the interests of Russia and Japan have nothing in conflict, one should be perfectly able to come to an understanding on the Corean question.
Marquis Ito said that he entirely shared the views of the Russian Minister on this point and that he thought that apart from the Corean question there is no question dividing the two countries and as on this point also there is no divergence of views on the fundamental question, one could perfectly come to an understanding on the question of detail. Marquis Ito then requests Mr. Hitrovo to be good enough to make every effort when he is at St. Petersburg, in order that Marshal Yamagata may succeed in his mission.
Mr. Hitrovo replied that he has always acted in that sense and will continue to do so. In his opinion, there are certain measures which the Russian Government as well as the Corean Government would willingly desire to see taken by the Japanese Government which so far as they are concerned would not be too ill-disposed either to take them. But those measures would offend the national feeling and would consequently be a great embarrassment for the Japanese Government. (The Russian Minister evidently wished to allude to the withdrawl of the Japanese troops from Corea). Under these circumstances these questions should be treated with much caution. The domestic situation of Japan must be known in taking account of the delicate position in which the Japanese Government are placed. Being in touch with these circumstances, he thinks he can be useful when in St. Petersburg. That is why though the Russian Government requested him to remain in Japan for some time longer, he has asked for leave to return home for this occasion. In case Mr. de Speyer should be unable to arrive in time, he has obtained authority to leave Mr. de Wollant as chargé d'affairs, But he has received a telegram saying that Mr. de Speyer arrives on the 6th in Tokio. Marquis Ito will then be able to talk with him over the questions of detail relative to the Corean affairs.
Marquis Ito thanks Mr. Hitrovo for his kindly dispositions and requests him to be good enough to acquaint his Government with the real intentions of the Japanese Government. As to certain measures spoken of by Mr. Hitrovo, Marquis Ito thinks that they can only be taken gradually, under the circumstances which the Russian Minister knows so well. As to the solution of the questions of detail, Marquis Ito will certainly be able to profit by the information which Mr. de Speyer will be able to give him on the actual situation of Corea.
Mr. Hitrovo promised to do his utmost to the end that the understanding in question might take place between the two Governments.


＊日本語訳

[伊藤総理大臣と駐日ロシア公使との朝鮮問題についての対話記録]
1896年 3月5日内閣総理大臣官舎において内閣総理大臣・伊藤侯爵閣下とロシア公使・Hitrovo閣下間の非公式会談の要約.

慣例的な挨拶を互いに交わした後、ロシア公使閣下は伊藤侯爵に、
「朝鮮問題に関して彼らが分かち合った長い期間に渉る会談にも拘わらず朝鮮で遺憾な事件（複数）が発生しロシア政府はその事件（複数）に非常に驚いたのだが、これらの中でヒトゥロブ氏が侯爵と持った会談に関して本国政府に発送した電文を受けとったロシア政府は更に驚いたと言う。また彼らは極東で新しい紛糾を願わないので京城のロシア公使がいかなる新しい事件をも起こさないよう訓令したのだが、不幸にも上記事件（複数）は電信線の途絶でその訓令が京城に到達する前に発せしてしまった。」
と語った。

伊藤侯爵は
「自分もやはり最近発生した事件に非常に驚いたのだが、朝鮮でたった今受けた最近の消息で京城に平穏が回復されたことを知ることになり非常にうれしい」
と回答した。そして侯爵はヒトゥロブ氏の親切な協力のおかげで日・露両国政府がある合意に到達出来るようになった点に対して満足感を表明した。

ロシア公使は
「自分も両国政府が朝鮮に駐在する自国代表に発送した訓令に関して合意に到達できるだろうと知って非常にうれしい」
と言いつつも、
「その同じ措置はただ暫定的なことに自分が先に会談で伊藤侯爵閣下に既に話したことがあったこのように全体的な問題に関する両国政府間の合意が非常に望ましく、山県元帥がその任務を引き受けていることと私は考える」
と語った。そして山県元帥がロシアに到着する少なくとも一カ月前にロシアへ行っている予定のヒトゥロブ氏は、元帥が到着する前に進行を準備するために元帥に委託された使命の全般的な要点を知っていたかった。

伊藤侯爵は
「事実上山県元帥がそのような内容の特別使命を帯びており、自分が元帥がロシアへ到着した後外務大臣と意見を交換する時、両国間の合意が到達できることを希望する」
と述べた。そして内閣総理大臣は
「ヒトゥロブ氏に西園寺侯爵と持った会談を想起させながら、自分も朝鮮は独立して生存することはできないが他の国々の助けを受ける必要があると考え、したがって日露両国がこの点に合意を見るため、その問題に関するロシア公使の意見を説明してくれるなら非常にありがたい」
と述べた。

ロシア公使は自分の意見として
「既に西園寺侯爵に話す機会があったように、朝鮮は自分一人では独立することができないので日露両国の合意によって朝鮮の生存を可能にする暫定協定を締結することが望ましい」
と答えた。ロシア公使が既に数回彼に宣言したように朝鮮問題においてロシアの希望は、朝鮮が他の列強たちの手中でロシアに反対する武器になってはいけないと言う事である。

次に伊藤侯爵は
「それがロシアの真正な意向であるなら両国の合意は非常に順調に成し遂げることができることだ」
と述べた。彼が既にヒトゥロブ氏に述べたように
「日本は決して朝鮮に対する侵略意図はなく、また現在までもこの国において独占的な影響力行使を望みもしなかった。しかし両国が朝鮮問題に関し到達できる合意の根拠を探し求めることは可能性が非常に大きいであろう。」

ヒトゥロブ氏は
「自分も両国のこの合意は非常に可能なことと考える」と答えた。彼の見解は「朝鮮問題は全般的な極東問題と分離することはできす、露日両国の利益の相衝（＊相容れないこと）は何もないので朝鮮問題に関して完全な合意に到達することは出来る」
と言った。

伊藤侯爵は
「この点でロシア公使の見解に全的に同意し、朝鮮問題を離れては両国の間に全く問題がなく、またその点に関して根本的な問題に対する意見差異がないので、細部的問題に関しても完全に合意に到達であろう」
と述べた。そして伊藤侯爵はヒトゥロブ氏に
「山県元帥がセントペテルブルクにいる間彼の使命を完遂できるようすべての努力を尽くす」
ことを付け加えた。

ヒトゥロブ氏は
「自分は常にそのような精神で行動してきたが今後も引き続きそのようにするだろう」
と答えた。彼の考えでは朝鮮政府だけでなくロシア政府で日本政府の選択を大変見たいとするある措置があるのだが、それは決して日本政府が取ることのできない程度で悪意的なことではないだろう。しかしその措置は日本の国民感情を傷つけることがありその結果日本政府は大変苦しい立場に陥るだろう。(ロシア公使ははっきり日本軍隊の朝鮮撤収が示唆されていることを願った)。 事情がこうなのでこの問題（複数）は非常に慎重に扱われなければならない。日本政府が置かれている微妙な立場を考慮する時は日本の国内事情も念頭に置かなければならない。彼は自身がこのような状況に精通しているのでセントペテルブルクで助けとなる事ができると考えている。こういうわけでロシア政府から彼に日本にもう少し停泊することを要請したのだが今回の場合彼は故国へ帰るために休暇を申請したとの事だ。万一トウ・スペイエル氏が遅れずに到着することが出来ない場合に備えて彼はトウ・スペイエルを代理公使にする許可を取って置いた。しかし彼はトウ・スペイエル氏が6日東京に到着するという電文を受けとった。だから伊藤侯爵は朝鮮事態に関する細部的な問題を彼と話合うことが出来るだろう。

伊藤侯爵は公使の親切な処理に感謝し日本政府の真正な意図を本国政府に知らせるよう彼に要請した。ヒトゥロブ氏が言及したある措置に関しては、伊藤侯爵はロシア公使が非常によく知っているので次第に選ぶ方法しかないと考えている。細部問題の解決に関して 伊藤侯爵はトウ・スペイエル氏が朝鮮の実状について彼に教えてくれる情報から間違いなく助けを得ることができる見通しだ。
ヒトゥロブ氏は両国政府が問題の合意を見ることが出来るよう最善を尽くすことを約束した。