Mujokan（M）
Comment No. 772830
August 23 5:28
NZL
Regarding Japan, I'd heard that the Americans tossed out all the fascists at the end of WWII, then when the Cold War got going, put them back in again (e.g. 1957-1960 Prime Minister Kishi Nobusuke, a suspected Class A war criminal), leading to the domination of the LDP.
"From the 1950s through the 1970s, the American Central Intelligence Agency spent millions of dollars attempting to influence elections in Japan to favor the LDP against more leftist parties such as the Socialists and the Communists, although this was not revealed until the mid-1990s when The New York Times exposed it."
http://
" In 1947, Newsweek foreign affairs editor Harry Kern, Newsweek Tokyo bureau chief Compton Packenham, corporate lawyer James L. Kauffman, the retired Joseph C. Grew, and Eugene Dooman, a retired diplomat who served under Grew in Tokyo, took the lead in creating the "American Council on Japan" (ACJ) with the aim of changing occupation policy. These men had prewar ties with numerous Japanese business and political leaders purged after 1945 and served as mediators between them and American officials. "
http://
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Phonetics（P）
Comment No. 772876
August 23 7:07
IDN
And out crawls stillmorewar, presD, and now the new name of PresD=BobUSA. Advocating world democratization by bombing the hell out of everyone and everything that gets in the way of american Big Oi...oops, I mean democracy...
Don't know much about the Khmer Rouge and Postwar Viet Nam, but Filipino's got their democracy from good old fashioned protests, read up on the rosary revolution. Ousting authoritarian (and well loved US boy toy) Marcos. And perhaps someday you should get off your asses and ask the people in Cambodia, Vietnam, Japan, Philippine's, etc. of what they think of the so-called "democracy" that the US gave them (Most still have grandparents and parents alive to tell the true tale). You'd find out that it's not far from the picture of most "lefties" that you hate so much.
And as for Japan gaining democracy "because" of US occupation (i forgot what nitwit posted this) i can only say that you know very little history or even have very little knowledge of what the Japanese are like. Industrious people do not need to be set free by some other man in some far off country. They are far from perfect but with regards to forward thinking and industrious ingenuity you'll find that it was the people in Japan (Read about the Taiko, the shogunate, Edo period, Meji period, etc) that made democracy possible and not America (LOAD OF B*****KS). I'd only go as far as to say that it was commodore Perry that allowed them to get in touch with the western world ( I think that they would've anyway, read up on Masamune Date's expedition to Rome), but definitely not the American occupation bringing "democracy" (also you could read up on the protests of the existing American base in Okinawa and the crimes it has caused).
Really, you (stillmorewar, presD,etc) should be ASHAMED.
Rgrds,
P.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
Rawprawn（R）
Comment No. 772883
August 23 7:20
JPN
stillmorewar: "And we certainly didn't make the Japanese Navy hit us at Pearl either."
A lot of historians would disagree with you. The 1941 oil embargo basically painted Japan into a corner. Any military strategist at the time could have expected the Japanese to react violently: they needed the East Indies oil even to survive domestically and the only way to get it was to cripple the US Navy. You probably dont believe the theory that FDR played this hand to bring the US into the European War, but it is a viable theory.
Even more viable is the view that US interventions from the Phillipines to Iraq are less about democracy and all about imperialism. 'Democracy', such as it is in the Phillipines, Japan or elsewhere, is just the US method of political influence, mainly because it goes hand in hand with free enterprise.
Nontheless, you are obviously knowledgeable on history: can you tell us the last time the US actually won a war, all by itself? 1898 wasn't it?
And even that one was probably started by a false flag op, like most of the others...
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
MeandYou
Comment No. 773067
August 23 9:39
What I heard from Bush yesterday, would be seriously mark if a GCSE student had written it.
There is a serious brain drain in Washington DC. If the USA citizens are not thoroughly ashamed of their president and see the great mistake they had made in puting this sort of man in power, USA will go down the drain faster than anyone had written or thought.
The slogan for USA citizens, should be "never again". George Bush showed yesterday, what a hopeless case he is.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
phonetics
Comment No. 773170
August 23 10:22
IDN
@OhtaNobumasa:
I do not like the diatribe that is posted by the likes of bobUSA, PresD, and his Ilk, and am very respective of the Japanese people and culture. But...
"If occupation of Philippines by Japan lasted for 10 odd years without the duress of war, then Philippines could have established a functioning democracy.
Study the Philippines occupation by Japan if you have time and curiosity."
If the occupation of the Philippines was anything like the occupation of Indonesia then I would beg to differ. Anything BUT democracy would have been created. You see once my Grandfather told me the story of how he had to eat the fesses of a Japanese soldier just so my Grandmother wouldn't get raped (she was offered rape or murder of one of her children-the Japanese imperialist years have a long history of rape and prostitution through out Asia don't they?) and how his family participated in Romusya (You do know about Romusya and it's several other versions through out south east Asia don't you?). But like all people even the Japanese aren't all stereotypically the same. A certain Col. Maeda from the Japanese army helped with the proclamation for Indonesia's independence and my grandfather has a half Japanese granddaughter (all legitimately through his line :->). But it is still too early for you to claim such Japanese supremacy.
Rgrds,
P.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
oohkuchi
Comment No. 773263
August 23 11:01
JPN
Just wanted to point out that Japan had a democratic system before WWII--it didn't need the US to "introduce" it. Google on Taisho democracy. Not perfect, but democracy none the less. Bush's ignorant speechwriter dissed one of the US's staunchest allies.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
CagedHorse（C）
Comment No. 773389
August 23 11:55
Good point, oohkuchi. Japan's 'Taisho democracy' of the late teens and early 20s was better than no democracy at all, but then warmongering rightists in government used a great calamity (the 1923 Kanto earthquake) as an excuse to eradicate dissent, whipping up hatred against 'subversive' liberals, left-wingers and foreigners -- hmm, sounds familiar doesn't it?
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
jjucovy
Comment No. 773589
August 23 13:13
USA
There are a few gaps in the article that bear pointing out. First of all, it is high time that the "building democracy in Japan and Germany" canard is put to rest. The claim that "we" built democracy is a demonstration of arrogant ignorance of the democratic institutions that existed in BOTH nations for over half a century prior to 1945. In fact, the Japanese nation continued to have parliamentary institutions throughout World War Two. While these had been subverted, they remained extant. So, both nations had long-standing practices and arrangements that allowed them to revive their parliamentary that had developed out of their own history. And the arrangements that continue to exist in both countries owe far more to their own practices, dating back to the nineteenth century, than to anything that the United States "built".
・・
Comment No. 772830
August 23 5:28
NZL
Regarding Japan, I'd heard that the Americans tossed out all the fascists at the end of WWII, then when the Cold War got going, put them back in again (e.g. 1957-1960 Prime Minister Kishi Nobusuke, a suspected Class A war criminal), leading to the domination of the LDP.
"From the 1950s through the 1970s, the American Central Intelligence Agency spent millions of dollars attempting to influence elections in Japan to favor the LDP against more leftist parties such as the Socialists and the Communists, although this was not revealed until the mid-1990s when The New York Times exposed it."
http://
" In 1947, Newsweek foreign affairs editor Harry Kern, Newsweek Tokyo bureau chief Compton Packenham, corporate lawyer James L. Kauffman, the retired Joseph C. Grew, and Eugene Dooman, a retired diplomat who served under Grew in Tokyo, took the lead in creating the "American Council on Japan" (ACJ) with the aim of changing occupation policy. These men had prewar ties with numerous Japanese business and political leaders purged after 1945 and served as mediators between them and American officials. "
http://
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
Phonetics（P）
Comment No. 772876
August 23 7:07
IDN
And out crawls stillmorewar, presD, and now the new name of PresD=BobUSA. Advocating world democratization by bombing the hell out of everyone and everything that gets in the way of american Big Oi...oops, I mean democracy...
Don't know much about the Khmer Rouge and Postwar Viet Nam, but Filipino's got their democracy from good old fashioned protests, read up on the rosary revolution. Ousting authoritarian (and well loved US boy toy) Marcos. And perhaps someday you should get off your asses and ask the people in Cambodia, Vietnam, Japan, Philippine's, etc. of what they think of the so-called "democracy" that the US gave them (Most still have grandparents and parents alive to tell the true tale). You'd find out that it's not far from the picture of most "lefties" that you hate so much.
And as for Japan gaining democracy "because" of US occupation (i forgot what nitwit posted this) i can only say that you know very little history or even have very little knowledge of what the Japanese are like. Industrious people do not need to be set free by some other man in some far off country. They are far from perfect but with regards to forward thinking and industrious ingenuity you'll find that it was the people in Japan (Read about the Taiko, the shogunate, Edo period, Meji period, etc) that made democracy possible and not America (LOAD OF B*****KS). I'd only go as far as to say that it was commodore Perry that allowed them to get in touch with the western world ( I think that they would've anyway, read up on Masamune Date's expedition to Rome), but definitely not the American occupation bringing "democracy" (also you could read up on the protests of the existing American base in Okinawa and the crimes it has caused).
Really, you (stillmorewar, presD,etc) should be ASHAMED.
Rgrds,
P.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
Rawprawn（R）
Comment No. 772883
August 23 7:20
JPN
stillmorewar: "And we certainly didn't make the Japanese Navy hit us at Pearl either."
A lot of historians would disagree with you. The 1941 oil embargo basically painted Japan into a corner. Any military strategist at the time could have expected the Japanese to react violently: they needed the East Indies oil even to survive domestically and the only way to get it was to cripple the US Navy. You probably dont believe the theory that FDR played this hand to bring the US into the European War, but it is a viable theory.
Even more viable is the view that US interventions from the Phillipines to Iraq are less about democracy and all about imperialism. 'Democracy', such as it is in the Phillipines, Japan or elsewhere, is just the US method of political influence, mainly because it goes hand in hand with free enterprise.
Nontheless, you are obviously knowledgeable on history: can you tell us the last time the US actually won a war, all by itself? 1898 wasn't it?
And even that one was probably started by a false flag op, like most of the others...
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
MeandYou
Comment No. 773067
August 23 9:39
What I heard from Bush yesterday, would be seriously mark if a GCSE student had written it.
There is a serious brain drain in Washington DC. If the USA citizens are not thoroughly ashamed of their president and see the great mistake they had made in puting this sort of man in power, USA will go down the drain faster than anyone had written or thought.
The slogan for USA citizens, should be "never again". George Bush showed yesterday, what a hopeless case he is.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
phonetics
Comment No. 773170
August 23 10:22
IDN
@OhtaNobumasa:
I do not like the diatribe that is posted by the likes of bobUSA, PresD, and his Ilk, and am very respective of the Japanese people and culture. But...
"If occupation of Philippines by Japan lasted for 10 odd years without the duress of war, then Philippines could have established a functioning democracy.
Study the Philippines occupation by Japan if you have time and curiosity."
If the occupation of the Philippines was anything like the occupation of Indonesia then I would beg to differ. Anything BUT democracy would have been created. You see once my Grandfather told me the story of how he had to eat the fesses of a Japanese soldier just so my Grandmother wouldn't get raped (she was offered rape or murder of one of her children-the Japanese imperialist years have a long history of rape and prostitution through out Asia don't they?) and how his family participated in Romusya (You do know about Romusya and it's several other versions through out south east Asia don't you?). But like all people even the Japanese aren't all stereotypically the same. A certain Col. Maeda from the Japanese army helped with the proclamation for Indonesia's independence and my grandfather has a half Japanese granddaughter (all legitimately through his line :->). But it is still too early for you to claim such Japanese supremacy.
Rgrds,
P.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
oohkuchi
Comment No. 773263
August 23 11:01
JPN
Just wanted to point out that Japan had a democratic system before WWII--it didn't need the US to "introduce" it. Google on Taisho democracy. Not perfect, but democracy none the less. Bush's ignorant speechwriter dissed one of the US's staunchest allies.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
CagedHorse（C）
Comment No. 773389
August 23 11:55
Good point, oohkuchi. Japan's 'Taisho democracy' of the late teens and early 20s was better than no democracy at all, but then warmongering rightists in government used a great calamity (the 1923 Kanto earthquake) as an excuse to eradicate dissent, whipping up hatred against 'subversive' liberals, left-wingers and foreigners -- hmm, sounds familiar doesn't it?
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
jjucovy
Comment No. 773589
August 23 13:13
USA
There are a few gaps in the article that bear pointing out. First of all, it is high time that the "building democracy in Japan and Germany" canard is put to rest. The claim that "we" built democracy is a demonstration of arrogant ignorance of the democratic institutions that existed in BOTH nations for over half a century prior to 1945. In fact, the Japanese nation continued to have parliamentary institutions throughout World War Two. While these had been subverted, they remained extant. So, both nations had long-standing practices and arrangements that allowed them to revive their parliamentary that had developed out of their own history. And the arrangements that continue to exist in both countries owe far more to their own practices, dating back to the nineteenth century, than to anything that the United States "built".
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コメント(8)
felixandur
Comment No. 773649
August 23 13:30
StillMoreWar - how naive can you be? a) Japan succeeded because they were and are a highly developed and educated nation, and probably would have recovered a lot more quickly without US intervention within the country; though US nuclear deterrent proabably v. helpful. (b) Where the US has supported democracy it is for self-interest (nothing necesarily wrong with that but saintly it ain't). There are just too many examples of anti-democratic interventions in support of awful right-wing governments - Greece, Africa, South America, even in the UK.
I'm not US bashing - but goverment bashing & there's no doubt the British govt has not generally been any better.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
StillMoreWar
Comment No. 773801
August 23 14:22
・・
cunningstunts-
Your post is one of the more idiotic that I've seen on the Guardian. I didn't say that the contribution HCM made was anywhere near the scale of the Soviet contribution. I just meant that our alliance with him, like our alliance with the SU, was an alliance of necessity/convenience. And no, Japan did not surrender because of the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in '45. They surrendered because in the previous 4 years America had essentially destroyed her.
OhtaNobumasa-
"If occupation of Philippines by Japan lasted for 10 odd years without the duress of war, then Philippines could have established a functioning democracy.
Study the Philippines occupation by Japan if you have time and curiosity."
I'll do you one better Oh-
"In 1992 when Henson was 65, she decided it was time to tell the world about her experience during the Japanese occupation of the Philippines in World War II. Until 1992, only two people who knew of her secret, her late mother and her dead husband. After coming out publicly with her story, Lola Rosa decided to write about her war-time experience. The result was the book, Comfort Woman: A Slave of Destiny". In Comfort Woman: A Slave of Destiny, Rosa provided an achingly straightforward voice to the erstwhile silent and invisible existence of Filipino comfort women. Almost 200 Filipino women soon followed Rosa's example as they decided to reveal themselves and their pesonal stories for the first time, not only to the world but to their families as well. Other Filipino women victims joined together, including those from Korea and China, to file a class action lawsuit against Japan. Together they demanded justice in the form of a formal apology from the Japanese government; the inclusion of all the war-time atrocities committed by the Japanese into Japan's school history books; and monetary reparations to compensate for all the abuses and violence committed against the women. However,the Japanese government denied legal responsibility and refused to pay the victims."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Henson
I guess they probably left that out of your history books, eh?
"The Alliance of liberal democratic Japan with Nazis Germany was an alliance of convenience,"
Yes it was. It was also an alliance of like-minded fascists.
You know Oh, I had heard a little about how the Japanese had been busy revising the history of WW2 for their public. But if you are any indication, the problem is much worse than I ever thought. Pick up a history book and read it, and make sure its not one censored by the Japanese government.
・・
Comment No. 773649
August 23 13:30
StillMoreWar - how naive can you be? a) Japan succeeded because they were and are a highly developed and educated nation, and probably would have recovered a lot more quickly without US intervention within the country; though US nuclear deterrent proabably v. helpful. (b) Where the US has supported democracy it is for self-interest (nothing necesarily wrong with that but saintly it ain't). There are just too many examples of anti-democratic interventions in support of awful right-wing governments - Greece, Africa, South America, even in the UK.
I'm not US bashing - but goverment bashing & there's no doubt the British govt has not generally been any better.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
StillMoreWar
Comment No. 773801
August 23 14:22
・・
cunningstunts-
Your post is one of the more idiotic that I've seen on the Guardian. I didn't say that the contribution HCM made was anywhere near the scale of the Soviet contribution. I just meant that our alliance with him, like our alliance with the SU, was an alliance of necessity/convenience. And no, Japan did not surrender because of the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in '45. They surrendered because in the previous 4 years America had essentially destroyed her.
OhtaNobumasa-
"If occupation of Philippines by Japan lasted for 10 odd years without the duress of war, then Philippines could have established a functioning democracy.
Study the Philippines occupation by Japan if you have time and curiosity."
I'll do you one better Oh-
"In 1992 when Henson was 65, she decided it was time to tell the world about her experience during the Japanese occupation of the Philippines in World War II. Until 1992, only two people who knew of her secret, her late mother and her dead husband. After coming out publicly with her story, Lola Rosa decided to write about her war-time experience. The result was the book, Comfort Woman: A Slave of Destiny". In Comfort Woman: A Slave of Destiny, Rosa provided an achingly straightforward voice to the erstwhile silent and invisible existence of Filipino comfort women. Almost 200 Filipino women soon followed Rosa's example as they decided to reveal themselves and their pesonal stories for the first time, not only to the world but to their families as well. Other Filipino women victims joined together, including those from Korea and China, to file a class action lawsuit against Japan. Together they demanded justice in the form of a formal apology from the Japanese government; the inclusion of all the war-time atrocities committed by the Japanese into Japan's school history books; and monetary reparations to compensate for all the abuses and violence committed against the women. However,the Japanese government denied legal responsibility and refused to pay the victims."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Henson
I guess they probably left that out of your history books, eh?
"The Alliance of liberal democratic Japan with Nazis Germany was an alliance of convenience,"
Yes it was. It was also an alliance of like-minded fascists.
You know Oh, I had heard a little about how the Japanese had been busy revising the history of WW2 for their public. But if you are any indication, the problem is much worse than I ever thought. Pick up a history book and read it, and make sure its not one censored by the Japanese government.
・・
phonetics-
"And as for Japan gaining democracy "because" of US occupation (i forgot what nitwit posted this) i can only say that you know very little history or even have very little knowledge of what the Japanese are like."
Who drew up Japan's constitution again? The AMERICANS. Once again, you lose.
・・
StillMoreWar
Comment No. 774037
August 23 15:35
・・
oohkuchi-
"Just wanted to point out that Japan had a democratic system before WWII--it didn't need the US to "introduce" it."
You are correct. The US did not "introduce" democracy to Japan. We just finally made it work.
・・
faustroll
Comment No. 774060
August 23 15:41
USA
You're absolutely right to point out that Japanese "democracy" was a bit of a joke since it was one-party rule, but what baffles me is that 99% of people are comfortable calling the US a "democracy" because it has TWO-party rule.
tristamshandy
Comment No. 774406
August 23 17:40
DEU
Mr Yglesias mentions that the Japanese attacked U.S. soil. At that time Hawaii was a territory, several thousand miles off the Californias (Baja Cal. making it plural.)
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lefthalfback
"And as for Japan gaining democracy "because" of US occupation (i forgot what nitwit posted this) i can only say that you know very little history or even have very little knowledge of what the Japanese are like."
Who drew up Japan's constitution again? The AMERICANS. Once again, you lose.
・・
StillMoreWar
Comment No. 774037
August 23 15:35
・・
oohkuchi-
"Just wanted to point out that Japan had a democratic system before WWII--it didn't need the US to "introduce" it."
You are correct. The US did not "introduce" democracy to Japan. We just finally made it work.
・・
faustroll
Comment No. 774060
August 23 15:41
USA
You're absolutely right to point out that Japanese "democracy" was a bit of a joke since it was one-party rule, but what baffles me is that 99% of people are comfortable calling the US a "democracy" because it has TWO-party rule.
tristamshandy
Comment No. 774406
August 23 17:40
DEU
Mr Yglesias mentions that the Japanese attacked U.S. soil. At that time Hawaii was a territory, several thousand miles off the Californias (Baja Cal. making it plural.)
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
lefthalfback
Comment No. 775311
August 24 4:54
USA
guiteau- I know-stillmore is a pain. Sometimes you just have to whack them
sursum- I actually do not thnk that we charegd the uK for Lend-lease. I say that absed on a book I read by a Brit, which talked about what a blow it was to post-war UK when we moved from Lend lease to regular commerce. Still, I could be wrong about that.
I am aware of some of your other points and I do not dispute that many Americans are not as well informed historically as they should be. Did not know the Stillwell cite you make, although I did know that he ahd no time for Chiang. What i meant by the bulk of the Army) Japanese) being in China was that they were occuppying China and trying to deter an attack by USSR.
rawprawn; Well, if you're an Aussie, you must know that US sailors could not buy their own drinks in Oz for many many years, so i am told, so deep was Aussie appreciation for US efforts in WWII. AS far as the nuclear attacks go, we could have blockaded Japan instead of them, or in addition to them. In the light of history, they do not look good, but they undoubtedly saved millions of lives, US, Allied and Japanese, and they came after a decade of relentless, merciless Japanese attacks on Chinese, Filipino and other civilians and POWs, including Aussies surrendered at singapore. Nanking is the most famous but hardly the only example. There were no Aussie "comfort women, raoed many times daily by Japanese soldiers. For that, you can thank the US Navy.
STILLMORE is an embarrasment, but we do have some things to our credit and saving Australia in 1942 is one of them.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
August 24 4:54
USA
guiteau- I know-stillmore is a pain. Sometimes you just have to whack them
sursum- I actually do not thnk that we charegd the uK for Lend-lease. I say that absed on a book I read by a Brit, which talked about what a blow it was to post-war UK when we moved from Lend lease to regular commerce. Still, I could be wrong about that.
I am aware of some of your other points and I do not dispute that many Americans are not as well informed historically as they should be. Did not know the Stillwell cite you make, although I did know that he ahd no time for Chiang. What i meant by the bulk of the Army) Japanese) being in China was that they were occuppying China and trying to deter an attack by USSR.
rawprawn; Well, if you're an Aussie, you must know that US sailors could not buy their own drinks in Oz for many many years, so i am told, so deep was Aussie appreciation for US efforts in WWII. AS far as the nuclear attacks go, we could have blockaded Japan instead of them, or in addition to them. In the light of history, they do not look good, but they undoubtedly saved millions of lives, US, Allied and Japanese, and they came after a decade of relentless, merciless Japanese attacks on Chinese, Filipino and other civilians and POWs, including Aussies surrendered at singapore. Nanking is the most famous but hardly the only example. There were no Aussie "comfort women, raoed many times daily by Japanese soldiers. For that, you can thank the US Navy.
STILLMORE is an embarrasment, but we do have some things to our credit and saving Australia in 1942 is one of them.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
l
phonetics
Comment No. 775319
August 24 5:10
IDN
I really can't believe stillmorewar that you would be that idiotic as to make a statement below as something of an argument...
@StillMoreWar
"... phonetics-
"And as for Japan gaining democracy "because" of US occupation (i forgot what nitwit posted this) i can only say that you know very little history or even have very little knowledge of what the Japanese are like."
Who drew up Japan's constitution again? The AMERICANS. Once again, you lose..."
What do I lose? Didn't know this was a competition... last time someone said that to me was in... let's see... ah yes, elementary school... It's just amazing how sometimes 8 year olds mimic adults... or is it adults mimic 8 year olds???
Here's japanese history 101 just for you ;-P
1. The current constitution (I think you are referring to Heiwa Keipo-the pacifist constitution) was drawn up by the ALLIED FORCES after the war and was forced on the Japanese to make sure they would never commit acts of aggression ever again, as is NORMAL after a war (I'm sure that the same certain measures were applied on Germany after WWII).
2.Although MacArthur (as supreme commander of the ALLIED FORCES) was responsible (meaning he managed-looked over the process) of the draft of that constitution it should also be noted that the main influences were the (get this...) LIBERAL-DEMOCRATS of JAPAN at that time (look into Shidehara).
3.List of considerations during the whole process (MacArthur liked to "copy-paste" a bit):
-the meiji constitution
-demands from japanese lawyers
-opinions of pacifist political leaders (yoshida shigeru)
4.The proposed constitution was akin to the British model of parliamentary government, which liberals thought to be the better alternative to the European absolutism of the Meiji Constitution.
5.(Saved the best for last)
I think you should know that democracy does not entail any sort of form of a constitution (that constitutions exist in a democracy are an effect and not a cause).
Democracy describes a number of related forms of government, which in modern terms isn't even describable (the variations are limitless).
Where as etymologically the word comes from Demos (Greek) which is grass roots.... So tell me again, what did I lose?
Rgrds,
P.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
phonetics
Comment No. 775319
August 24 5:10
IDN
I really can't believe stillmorewar that you would be that idiotic as to make a statement below as something of an argument...
@StillMoreWar
"... phonetics-
"And as for Japan gaining democracy "because" of US occupation (i forgot what nitwit posted this) i can only say that you know very little history or even have very little knowledge of what the Japanese are like."
Who drew up Japan's constitution again? The AMERICANS. Once again, you lose..."
What do I lose? Didn't know this was a competition... last time someone said that to me was in... let's see... ah yes, elementary school... It's just amazing how sometimes 8 year olds mimic adults... or is it adults mimic 8 year olds???
Here's japanese history 101 just for you ;-P
1. The current constitution (I think you are referring to Heiwa Keipo-the pacifist constitution) was drawn up by the ALLIED FORCES after the war and was forced on the Japanese to make sure they would never commit acts of aggression ever again, as is NORMAL after a war (I'm sure that the same certain measures were applied on Germany after WWII).
2.Although MacArthur (as supreme commander of the ALLIED FORCES) was responsible (meaning he managed-looked over the process) of the draft of that constitution it should also be noted that the main influences were the (get this...) LIBERAL-DEMOCRATS of JAPAN at that time (look into Shidehara).
3.List of considerations during the whole process (MacArthur liked to "copy-paste" a bit):
-the meiji constitution
-demands from japanese lawyers
-opinions of pacifist political leaders (yoshida shigeru)
4.The proposed constitution was akin to the British model of parliamentary government, which liberals thought to be the better alternative to the European absolutism of the Meiji Constitution.
5.(Saved the best for last)
I think you should know that democracy does not entail any sort of form of a constitution (that constitutions exist in a democracy are an effect and not a cause).
Democracy describes a number of related forms of government, which in modern terms isn't even describable (the variations are limitless).
Where as etymologically the word comes from Demos (Greek) which is grass roots.... So tell me again, what did I lose?
Rgrds,
P.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
Berchmans
Comment No. 775358
August 24 7:08
GBR
lefthalfback
.
## the bulk of the Army (Japanese) .. in China ##
.
Yes.. this is not mentioned in * Sands of Imo Jima. *
Imagine if we had had to fight them without the good Chinese people who died in droves.
I often think of them whenever we sneer at the Yanks for coming in in 41 .
The poor people of Manchuria think that WW2 started in 31.
Take Care.
B
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StillMoreWar
Comment No. 776207
August 24 14:11
USA
phonetics-
The bottom line is that Japan's successful democracy is due mostly to America. Our benevolent administration of the country and our support were the crucial elements. Same with Germany.
"MacArthur himself commented early on that meeting this goal would certainly require a "revision of the Meiji Constitution." But even he could not have imagined that a few months later, his young American staff would write an entirely new constitution, one that has governed Japanese affairs ever since without the change of a comma."
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/macarthur/peopleevents/pandeAMEX102.html
mirabeau
Comment No. 775726
August 24 10:54
GBR
Actually I think Bush was right to invoke the attack on Pearl Harbour by way of analogy, except he got it the wrong way round. America is now in the role of imperial Japan, justifying its acts of aggression with the spurious doctrine of "anticipatory self-defence" - except for of course the fact that Pearl Harbour was an attack on a military target and an actual threat, whilst Iraq was a savage attack on a whole society and a pretended threat.
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Sorry, you still lost. Haha.
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sursum
Comment No. 776738
August 24 17:04
CAN
lefthalfback: I gotta say one more thing. The USSR and Japan had a non-agression pact that permitted both countries to leave a bare minimum of troops facing each other. The USSR broke that pact in the spring of 1945 and only after HItler was defeated, swooping down into Mancuria and netting over 650,000 Japanese, more damage to the Imperial Army than the western Allies combined ever did. So the concept of holding an army to face the USSR before then would seem rash indeed. Hence my concept of tying down the Imperial army in Asia and not permitting it to get back to the homeland. Now I quit!
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Comment No. 775358
August 24 7:08
GBR
lefthalfback
.
## the bulk of the Army (Japanese) .. in China ##
.
Yes.. this is not mentioned in * Sands of Imo Jima. *
Imagine if we had had to fight them without the good Chinese people who died in droves.
I often think of them whenever we sneer at the Yanks for coming in in 41 .
The poor people of Manchuria think that WW2 started in 31.
Take Care.
B
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
StillMoreWar
Comment No. 776207
August 24 14:11
USA
phonetics-
The bottom line is that Japan's successful democracy is due mostly to America. Our benevolent administration of the country and our support were the crucial elements. Same with Germany.
"MacArthur himself commented early on that meeting this goal would certainly require a "revision of the Meiji Constitution." But even he could not have imagined that a few months later, his young American staff would write an entirely new constitution, one that has governed Japanese affairs ever since without the change of a comma."
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/macarthur/peopleevents/pandeAMEX102.html
mirabeau
Comment No. 775726
August 24 10:54
GBR
Actually I think Bush was right to invoke the attack on Pearl Harbour by way of analogy, except he got it the wrong way round. America is now in the role of imperial Japan, justifying its acts of aggression with the spurious doctrine of "anticipatory self-defence" - except for of course the fact that Pearl Harbour was an attack on a military target and an actual threat, whilst Iraq was a savage attack on a whole society and a pretended threat.
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Sorry, you still lost. Haha.
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sursum
Comment No. 776738
August 24 17:04
CAN
lefthalfback: I gotta say one more thing. The USSR and Japan had a non-agression pact that permitted both countries to leave a bare minimum of troops facing each other. The USSR broke that pact in the spring of 1945 and only after HItler was defeated, swooping down into Mancuria and netting over 650,000 Japanese, more damage to the Imperial Army than the western Allies combined ever did. So the concept of holding an army to face the USSR before then would seem rash indeed. Hence my concept of tying down the Imperial army in Asia and not permitting it to get back to the homeland. Now I quit!
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lefthalfback
Comment No. 776899
August 24 18:09
USA
sursum, I don't know too much about that pact, but obviously the japanese did not put too much faith in it since they had 650,000 guys there to get captured when the Russians attacked in the summer of 1945. I think I have read somewhere that the japanese fought the Imphal-Kohima/Slim counteroffensive campaign with something like 60,000 men to start and never got reinforcments. The climactic fight at Imphal/Kohima was like a regimental affair, although of course larger elements were involved generally.
Obviously the japanese expected that the war against us would be primarily naval and naval aviation. Whichever nation controlled the seas would be able to isolate and capture the island garrisons of the other country. that is how the japanese whacked you, us and the dutch in 1941/early 1942 and how we whacked them progressively after Midway. To just look at where the large bodies of troops were complicated is to really miss a big part of the picture. japan had to be defeated at land and sea.
I have not begrudged UK/USSR efforts in any theatre during WWII. I concede that the bulk of the Japanese Army was on the mainland of Asia. It had to be there to hold down Japan's conquests and reap the economic benefits of conquest.
However, US forces (and Aussies btw) had to contend with high level Japanese troops in the islands campaigns, and to get at them, the USN first had to defeat the IJN, previously undefeated in all combats going back to the Russo-Japanese war. So,like I said last night, we did the majority of the work against the Japanese, for the simple reason that we have something like a 2,000 mile Pacific coastline and had allies in NZ and AUS whom we could reach( and protect) and from which we could base counteroffensives and because UK and USSR really had to focus in Europe.
I mean, after a convulsive effort UK sent what would have formerly been called the British pacific Fleet in 1945. It had several carriers, a fast battleship or 2 with attendant cruisers/destroyers and fleet train. That immensly powerful force, clearly the strongest force UK had ever deployed out side Home waters, amounted to one of a half dozen or more Task Forces in the USN Fifth fleet,which consisted at that point of something like 20 carriers, 6-8 fast battleships and proportionate numbers of cruisers etc. That didn't count the Seventh Fleet which had 8 or so old battleships, a bunch of small carriers etc.
I will say this. had Germany been defeated in the Fall of 44, I have no doubt that the British would have made an enormous effort in the spring of 45 in Asia. it is clear that Churchill wanted to do that for a variety of reasons, not least of which was the desire to retain Empire. IN that context, the re-conquest of Burma would have been very important as a base of operations argainst Singapore and the Dutch colonies. No doubt that the Russians would also have heavily involved themselves and the whole end in Asia would ahve been much more an "Allied" affair. Honestly, that would not ahve sat well with the USN or MacArthur. Running the way it did, it has to be said that w edid the bnulk of the work in the Pacific. (All due respect to OZ and the Brits/Commw/Empireeffort as well).
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Comment No. 776899
August 24 18:09
USA
sursum, I don't know too much about that pact, but obviously the japanese did not put too much faith in it since they had 650,000 guys there to get captured when the Russians attacked in the summer of 1945. I think I have read somewhere that the japanese fought the Imphal-Kohima/Slim counteroffensive campaign with something like 60,000 men to start and never got reinforcments. The climactic fight at Imphal/Kohima was like a regimental affair, although of course larger elements were involved generally.
Obviously the japanese expected that the war against us would be primarily naval and naval aviation. Whichever nation controlled the seas would be able to isolate and capture the island garrisons of the other country. that is how the japanese whacked you, us and the dutch in 1941/early 1942 and how we whacked them progressively after Midway. To just look at where the large bodies of troops were complicated is to really miss a big part of the picture. japan had to be defeated at land and sea.
I have not begrudged UK/USSR efforts in any theatre during WWII. I concede that the bulk of the Japanese Army was on the mainland of Asia. It had to be there to hold down Japan's conquests and reap the economic benefits of conquest.
However, US forces (and Aussies btw) had to contend with high level Japanese troops in the islands campaigns, and to get at them, the USN first had to defeat the IJN, previously undefeated in all combats going back to the Russo-Japanese war. So,like I said last night, we did the majority of the work against the Japanese, for the simple reason that we have something like a 2,000 mile Pacific coastline and had allies in NZ and AUS whom we could reach( and protect) and from which we could base counteroffensives and because UK and USSR really had to focus in Europe.
I mean, after a convulsive effort UK sent what would have formerly been called the British pacific Fleet in 1945. It had several carriers, a fast battleship or 2 with attendant cruisers/destroyers and fleet train. That immensly powerful force, clearly the strongest force UK had ever deployed out side Home waters, amounted to one of a half dozen or more Task Forces in the USN Fifth fleet,which consisted at that point of something like 20 carriers, 6-8 fast battleships and proportionate numbers of cruisers etc. That didn't count the Seventh Fleet which had 8 or so old battleships, a bunch of small carriers etc.
I will say this. had Germany been defeated in the Fall of 44, I have no doubt that the British would have made an enormous effort in the spring of 45 in Asia. it is clear that Churchill wanted to do that for a variety of reasons, not least of which was the desire to retain Empire. IN that context, the re-conquest of Burma would have been very important as a base of operations argainst Singapore and the Dutch colonies. No doubt that the Russians would also have heavily involved themselves and the whole end in Asia would ahve been much more an "Allied" affair. Honestly, that would not ahve sat well with the USN or MacArthur. Running the way it did, it has to be said that w edid the bnulk of the work in the Pacific. (All due respect to OZ and the Brits/Commw/Empireeffort as well).
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sursum
Comment No. 777163
August 24 20:38
CAN
lefthalfback: Well written! The pact was signed at the insistence of Stalin who didn't want to worry about his back, his first fear was the German advance into his country. Japan had been dealt a sharp smack by Russian troops very early in 1939 (I think) and readily agreed there was no reason not to sign the non-agression pact. The general who delivered the sharp rebuke to Japanese test incursions also sucessfully (if that word can be used)defended Stalingrad. The 650,000 troops eventually bagged by the Russians was part of the over 2 million Imperial Army garrisoned on the Asian mainland and there was an agreement that the USSR would (and did) stop their southward advance on the 38 parrallel in Korea. Hence the beginning of another still-with-us story. I have always had this question in my mind. Why did the Japanese surrender so readily on the mainland, but fought to the death in the Pacific? I've thought maybe it was Japanese Naval marines were in the Pacific, a more fanatical formation of the Imperial armed forces, and that the Army was not so dedicated therefore perhaps were agreeable to surrender after being to to do so. I know the Brits left them in charge of administration of their occupied areas until things could be straightened out later.
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lefthalfback
Comment No. 777263
August 24 22:03
USA
sursum, well I don't know the japanese Order of Battle but I think thjat they ahd large garrisons in the big islands, I mean like whole Armies in the Phillipines, 40,000 plus in the Marianans and so forth. I doubt if they had that much naval infantry/marines. Plus, they fought pretty hard on the mainland agianst you and the Chinese.
I expect the Red Army used some highly skilled armored and mechanized formations, that the ground was open and highly suitable for penetrating drives by such formations,that the Russian tanks were much better than anything the Japanese had (likewise the Russian airforce) and that Japan's general surrender played a role. Also, by that point the Reds had 5 years of experience against the German Army and, let's face it, were pretty good by that point.
There is a good and very comprehensive WWII history recently out called "A War to be Won". The authors are Yanks. They say that by 43/44 The Red Army Command as a whole had become the most highly skilled of all in operational terms and in deception. (They liked Patton too) In UK Army, they liked Slim. They also say that Monty gave all the dirty work to the canadians clearing the Scheldt and only gave your guys the stuff they needed when basically threatened with dismisall by Ike. Interesting reading. They really hate Bradley in US Army.
Anyway, bacxk to the Red Army attack in Manchuria. My guess is that a largely static japanese Army in Manchuria found itself being penetrated in depth by armored columns which overwhelmed the japanese tanks aand kept going deeper into the Japanese rear areas, thus cutting off large numbers of frontline Japanese soldiers who lacked motorized transport. I would also guess that these guys did not surrender right away but stayed where they were and then got surrendered after Nagasaki. Just a guess.
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Comment No. 777163
August 24 20:38
CAN
lefthalfback: Well written! The pact was signed at the insistence of Stalin who didn't want to worry about his back, his first fear was the German advance into his country. Japan had been dealt a sharp smack by Russian troops very early in 1939 (I think) and readily agreed there was no reason not to sign the non-agression pact. The general who delivered the sharp rebuke to Japanese test incursions also sucessfully (if that word can be used)defended Stalingrad. The 650,000 troops eventually bagged by the Russians was part of the over 2 million Imperial Army garrisoned on the Asian mainland and there was an agreement that the USSR would (and did) stop their southward advance on the 38 parrallel in Korea. Hence the beginning of another still-with-us story. I have always had this question in my mind. Why did the Japanese surrender so readily on the mainland, but fought to the death in the Pacific? I've thought maybe it was Japanese Naval marines were in the Pacific, a more fanatical formation of the Imperial armed forces, and that the Army was not so dedicated therefore perhaps were agreeable to surrender after being to to do so. I know the Brits left them in charge of administration of their occupied areas until things could be straightened out later.
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lefthalfback
Comment No. 777263
August 24 22:03
USA
sursum, well I don't know the japanese Order of Battle but I think thjat they ahd large garrisons in the big islands, I mean like whole Armies in the Phillipines, 40,000 plus in the Marianans and so forth. I doubt if they had that much naval infantry/marines. Plus, they fought pretty hard on the mainland agianst you and the Chinese.
I expect the Red Army used some highly skilled armored and mechanized formations, that the ground was open and highly suitable for penetrating drives by such formations,that the Russian tanks were much better than anything the Japanese had (likewise the Russian airforce) and that Japan's general surrender played a role. Also, by that point the Reds had 5 years of experience against the German Army and, let's face it, were pretty good by that point.
There is a good and very comprehensive WWII history recently out called "A War to be Won". The authors are Yanks. They say that by 43/44 The Red Army Command as a whole had become the most highly skilled of all in operational terms and in deception. (They liked Patton too) In UK Army, they liked Slim. They also say that Monty gave all the dirty work to the canadians clearing the Scheldt and only gave your guys the stuff they needed when basically threatened with dismisall by Ike. Interesting reading. They really hate Bradley in US Army.
Anyway, bacxk to the Red Army attack in Manchuria. My guess is that a largely static japanese Army in Manchuria found itself being penetrated in depth by armored columns which overwhelmed the japanese tanks aand kept going deeper into the Japanese rear areas, thus cutting off large numbers of frontline Japanese soldiers who lacked motorized transport. I would also guess that these guys did not surrender right away but stayed where they were and then got surrendered after Nagasaki. Just a guess.
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cunningstunts
Comment No. 777572
August 25 3:22
JPN
Happy American
Read some real history. The British fought the Japanese in SE asia during ww2. According to British stats nearly 30,000 British troops died fighting the Japanese. The biggest campaign, and ultimately successful, was in Burma. Arguably the most gruelling campaign fought against the Japanese. The Japanese lost nearly 200,000 troops killed. More than they lost in Guadalcanal, Saipan , Guam, Iwojima and Okinawa combined. Now please dont get me wrong. Im not dismissing the incredible achievement of the US navy, marine corps or army in the pacific. I know the Japanese were dug into those islands, with modest numbers, but fought fanaticaly. They did so where ever they fought. I know it was an incredible feat of logistics, unsurpassed in history, and nobody else could do it at that time. Im simply pointing out that the US was definately not alone in fighting Japan. BTW the first troops to defeat the Japanese in a Land battle were the Austraians at the battle of Milne bay, in mid 1942. Read about it. The kokoda trail is another amazing story too. Free your mind my friend.
Have a nice day
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phonetics
Comment No. 775319
August 24 5:10
IDN
・・
Sorry, you still lost. Haha."
>>>>DID YOU EVEN READ MY POST?
Alright, just to save time I'll do a quick synopsis since you cannot fathom the entirety of what I wrote...
1.a DEMOCRACY is in essence GRASS ROOTS, a CONSTITUTION does NOT and can NOT denote whether or not a COUNTRY is democratic, the PEOPLE and SYSTEM OF GOVERNING DO (Theocrats have CONSTITUTIONS TOO). It is however a CRITERIA of GOVERNMENT to HAVE a CONSTITUTION but it DOES NOT MEAN IT IS DEMOCRATIC.
therefor
when YOU SAY :
AMERICANS GAVE DEMOCRACY
it is UNTRUE
since a CONSTITUTION cannot exist to GIVE democracy.
and since the CONSTITUTION is all you have for an argument on how AMERICA GAVE DEMOCRACY to JAPAN it becomes a MISNOMER.
2.MacArthur SUPERVISED as a COMMANDER OF THE ALLIED FORCES... emphasis on ALLIED FORCES.
your idiocy astounds me... Yes, you win, I have never seen another post with as much idiocy as you have shown here :-)
Rgrds,
P.
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phonetics
Comment No. 777593
August 25 4:04
IDN
@StillMoreWar
Comment No. 776207
"phonetics-
The bottom line is that Japan's successful democracy is due mostly to America. Our benevolent administration of the country and our support were the crucial elements. Same with Germany.
"MacArthur himself commented early on that meeting this goal would certainly require a "revision of the Meiji Constitution." But even he could not have imagined that a few months later, his young American staff would write an entirely new constitution, one that has governed Japanese affairs ever since without the change of a comma."
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/macarthur/peopleevents/pandeAMEX102.html
StillMoreWar
Comment No. 777681
August 25 8:01
USA
phonetics-
Sorry phone, you still lose. America wrote Japan's constitution, and therefore laid the groundwork for their success today. Don't you ever get tired of losing? Macarthur was American, was he not?
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
Comment No. 777572
August 25 3:22
JPN
Happy American
Read some real history. The British fought the Japanese in SE asia during ww2. According to British stats nearly 30,000 British troops died fighting the Japanese. The biggest campaign, and ultimately successful, was in Burma. Arguably the most gruelling campaign fought against the Japanese. The Japanese lost nearly 200,000 troops killed. More than they lost in Guadalcanal, Saipan , Guam, Iwojima and Okinawa combined. Now please dont get me wrong. Im not dismissing the incredible achievement of the US navy, marine corps or army in the pacific. I know the Japanese were dug into those islands, with modest numbers, but fought fanaticaly. They did so where ever they fought. I know it was an incredible feat of logistics, unsurpassed in history, and nobody else could do it at that time. Im simply pointing out that the US was definately not alone in fighting Japan. BTW the first troops to defeat the Japanese in a Land battle were the Austraians at the battle of Milne bay, in mid 1942. Read about it. The kokoda trail is another amazing story too. Free your mind my friend.
Have a nice day
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
phonetics
Comment No. 775319
August 24 5:10
IDN
・・
Sorry, you still lost. Haha."
>>>>DID YOU EVEN READ MY POST?
Alright, just to save time I'll do a quick synopsis since you cannot fathom the entirety of what I wrote...
1.a DEMOCRACY is in essence GRASS ROOTS, a CONSTITUTION does NOT and can NOT denote whether or not a COUNTRY is democratic, the PEOPLE and SYSTEM OF GOVERNING DO (Theocrats have CONSTITUTIONS TOO). It is however a CRITERIA of GOVERNMENT to HAVE a CONSTITUTION but it DOES NOT MEAN IT IS DEMOCRATIC.
therefor
when YOU SAY :
AMERICANS GAVE DEMOCRACY
it is UNTRUE
since a CONSTITUTION cannot exist to GIVE democracy.
and since the CONSTITUTION is all you have for an argument on how AMERICA GAVE DEMOCRACY to JAPAN it becomes a MISNOMER.
2.MacArthur SUPERVISED as a COMMANDER OF THE ALLIED FORCES... emphasis on ALLIED FORCES.
your idiocy astounds me... Yes, you win, I have never seen another post with as much idiocy as you have shown here :-)
Rgrds,
P.
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
phonetics
Comment No. 777593
August 25 4:04
IDN
@StillMoreWar
Comment No. 776207
"phonetics-
The bottom line is that Japan's successful democracy is due mostly to America. Our benevolent administration of the country and our support were the crucial elements. Same with Germany.
"MacArthur himself commented early on that meeting this goal would certainly require a "revision of the Meiji Constitution." But even he could not have imagined that a few months later, his young American staff would write an entirely new constitution, one that has governed Japanese affairs ever since without the change of a comma."
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/macarthur/peopleevents/pandeAMEX102.html
StillMoreWar
Comment No. 777681
August 25 8:01
USA
phonetics-
Sorry phone, you still lose. America wrote Japan's constitution, and therefore laid the groundwork for their success today. Don't you ever get tired of losing? Macarthur was American, was he not?
[Offensive? Unsuitable? Report this comment.]
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